Difference between a BP and Gorilla

[moo321]

Listen, no insult intended, but I don't really care why you may think BP team play is obsolete. Its not, and I have a highly successful team that is proof of that. If you read my previous post you will see that I am not against EMFH team play, and will also use it for my team at certain casinos. But for longevity while still making good profit, we could not survive as a team without the many versions of BP team play.

I offer you this. I read all the time on this very forum about so many getting backed off or even banned. Its hard for me to relate. My team I'm sure logs more hours of play then just about anyone posting here. We also play at a significantly higher stakes level then most. Yet the last backoff came in 2001 and that was not even related to actual play. The way we play as a team has been very lucrative over the years. To think that we haven't explored other avenues of play would be ridiculous. At the same time there are certain criteria of play that must be met beyond a simulation. Being able to play at high stakes for years unmolested by the casinos is the biggest. That is what matters to us. We play for profit not for just today, but for everyday.

Running a successful BP team is not proof that a BP team is the best way. There are other forms of play that offer higher EV per hour of play, and lower ror for a given bank. Congratulations on your successful play.

BP teams are generally not the best way to organize. As I said above, there can be exceptions. If you have a million dollar bank, it may be a better way to organize. If you find a shoe game dealt to 1/2 deck, then it's a good way to extend your play. But OVERALL, it isn't the best way for most teams to play, and it will get detected more easily than before. If you disagree, that's fine. Keep playing your way, and I'm glad you're winning.

 

[Bojack1]

Running a successful BP team is not proof that a BP team is the best way. There are other forms of play that offer higher EV per hour of play, and lower ror for a given bank. Congratulations on your successful play.

BP teams are generally not the best way to organize. As I said above, there can be exceptions. If you have a million dollar bank, it may be a better way to organize. If you find a shoe game dealt to 1/2 deck, then it's a good way to extend your play. But OVERALL, it isn't the best way for most teams to play, and it will get detected more easily than before. If you disagree, that's fine. Keep playing your way, and I'm glad you're winning.

I don't think you are comprehending what I'm saying in my posts. I have been there done that as far as what works in the casinos. I base my opinion on experience not theory. What may give you a theoretical edge in E.V. is not worth a damn if backed off. Playing just as a single counter albeit with a team bankroll is nice but will eventually get you shut down if you choose to play aggressively and often. The proof is in the never endless stories of backoffs right here in this forum. Also take note that I mentioned that there are many styles of BP team play. I promise you there are instances where the E.V. is unmatched by any other play. You just aren't going to read about it in a book. At least not for a while hopefully. I appreciate your opinion here, but it seems its based more on theory than reality. I will conceed that running a sim based on average BP play vs. EMFH may result in a more optimal style of play. I gaurantee you that when put into practice exclusively that you won't like the real results. 14 years and counting, you still think its easily detected? Somebody better tell the casinos they're missing something.

 

[Dyepaintball12]

My idea for BP play -


Have the BP be not a single person, but a 2 person "couple". It would be a female college student with a male. This would definitely not be unusual.

I would be called in by the spotters, and have my gf "pick" the table. She would sit down and ask my for chips. I would say well alright here u go, and she would bet. If she wins and the count goes higher, I say "hell yeah babe bump that bet up!". If the count goes up but she doesnt win, I say "Hey push the bet up u gotta win this one!" If the count goes down, I say "Nah this table is wierd lets move"

Over time would that be too obvious?

 

[mjbballar23]

My idea for BP play -




Over time would that be too obvious?

No but it would be extremely inefficient having two people play the same role. You better be betting hundreds or it wont be worth the effort.

 

[moo321]

I don't think you are comprehending what I'm saying in my posts. I have been there done that as far as what works in the casinos. I base my opinion on experience not theory. What may give you a theoretical edge in E.V. is not worth a damn if backed off. Playing just as a single counter albeit with a team bankroll is nice but will eventually get you shut down if you choose to play aggressively and often. The proof is in the never endless stories of backoffs right here in this forum. Also take note that I mentioned that there are many styles of BP team play. I promise you there are instances where the E.V. is unmatched by any other play. You just aren't going to read about it in a book. At least not for a while hopefully. I appreciate your opinion here, but it seems its based more on theory than reality. I will conceed that running a sim based on average BP play vs. EMFH may result in a more optimal style of play. I gaurantee you that when put into practice exclusively that you won't like the real results. 14 years and counting, you still think its easily detected? Somebody better tell the casinos they're missing something.

Well, have fun with your BP team. More than one way to skin a cat.

 

[Dyepaintball12]

Well yeah, it would be the BP, so she would in fact be betting hundreds.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

EMFH is not superior from a heat perspective basically, but has other things going for it that I can think of:

- No need to assemble team
- Play can be spread across multiple shifts/casinos/states
- No missed opportunities to catch high counts
- Easier to generate more play hours
- more big bets placed in proportion to waiting bets

These are all true, and there's one more very important one- lack of team hierarchy. Everyone's an investor, everyone's a player. Thus it's really not "every man for himself", just each player playing individually or in a small cooperative (backcounting together, etc.) off a combined bankroll and with combined results. Having players distributed all over a venue or several venues allows more useful information to be shared too.

Otherwise, there is too much crap about how investors get paid, and this nonsense about BP's outranking spotters in some way. Pissing off even one member of the team can destroy the team. Especially if it's me! If I thought I was being screwed, 30 minutes would be offered to return me my money, in full and in gold, or we're going to casino security and the police, in that order, and that's the end of your team. And after the cops are done with us and leave, I might have a little going-away present for someone too. When everybody's an equal, there's no power available to screw an individual participant and thus no reason for a participant to retaliate in such a manner.

That's not to say everyone needs to play exactly the same role, especially when you have players with a mix of different skills. But at least economically everyone needs to be treated equitably and fairly, and from the descriptions of the BP-centered teams I've heard, that's not what they're doing.

Oh and there is one major advantage to EMFH from a heat perspective: if something happens to one member of the team, big deal. He just leaves and goes and plays somewhere else, just like an individual player would, and there's no connection to anyone else on the team. He's indistinguishable from a solo counter, and they don't fear solo counters. But surveillance people know all about BP's and when they find one, they know they had 4-5 team members in their casino at the same time and it won't be that hard for them to roll back the tape and brand all of them.

 

[Bojack1]

These are all true, and there's one more very important one- lack of team hierarchy. Everyone's an investor, everyone's a player. Thus it's really not "every man for himself", just each player playing individually or in a small cooperative (backcounting together, etc.) off a combined bankroll and with combined results. Having players distributed all over a venue or several venues allows more useful information to be shared too.

Otherwise, there is too much crap about how investors get paid, and this nonsense about BP's outranking spotters in some way. Pissing off even one member of the team can destroy the team. Especially if it's me! If I thought I was being screwed, 30 minutes would be offered to return me my money, in full and in gold, or we're going to casino security and the police, in that order, and that's the end of your team. And after the cops are done with us and leave, I might have a little going-away present for someone too. When everybody's an equal, there's no power available to screw an individual participant and thus no reason for a participant to retaliate in such a manner.

That's not to say everyone needs to play exactly the same role, especially when you have players with a mix of different skills. But at least economically everyone needs to be treated equitably and fairly, and from the descriptions of the BP-centered teams I've heard, that's not what they're doing.

Oh and there is one major advantage to EMFH from a heat perspective: if something happens to one member of the team, big deal. He just leaves and goes and plays somewhere else, just like an individual player would, and there's no connection to anyone else on the team. He's indistinguishable from a solo counter, and they don't fear solo counters. But surveillance people know all about BP's and when they find one, they know they had 4-5 team members in their casino at the same time and it won't be that hard for them to roll back the tape and brand all of them.

The problems you describe here as far as a heirarchy would only occur if the rules of the team were made up after it was formed. If everybody signs on knowing full well what is expected and what the guidelines are then there is no reason for resentment. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it can easily happen just as well splitting money evenly with other players even though you are winning and they are not. It has been my experience that its that style of play that causes more friction then any other. How many times do you think somebody will want to split their winnings with somebody who's losing, and honestly at that, before it starts to grate the nerves. Not long I assure you.

As far as having a team with different levels of pay and investment, well there's nothing wrong with that. The most successful teams actually are run as businesses. As in all business there are different level of employees and management. It works with corporations, it also works with well run teams. As with business there is opportunity to advance your position, or stay where you are and benefit from the security of the team. Either way an individual can control what their status on the team is and thats as fair as it gets.

As far as heat goes listen, if a player on an EMFH team gets backed off, he's done. Most teams are not splitting money with someone who can't play. Its not to say he can't play somewhere else but it will be a factor in payoffs later. If a player gets the boot from a casino they are that much less valuable to the team, is that still fair? As far as BP backoffs go, it could be bad, but they are so rare its just noise in the equation. I have gotten backed of less in 14 years then those playing the game 6 months. Thats enough for me not to worry about the effects of a BP backoff. Thats not to say we don't try to prepare for it, but the worry is minimal.

As for your disgruntled player scenario, well going to the casino to tell your tale of woe I'm sure will be met with such sympathy from the kind and loving casino higher ups. You might throw a "monkey wrench" into the team plans, but I assure you you will be punching your own ticket as well. Going to the cops, big deal, prove a law was broken. Then prove it wasn't you that broke it when it comes back at you from more than one witness. As far as any "surprises" afterward, well that would just be fun, taking the "tough" out of tough guys is even better then blackjack itself.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

...
As far as heat goes listen, if a player on an EMFH team gets backed off, he's done. Most teams are not splitting money with someone who can't play. Its not to say he can't play somewhere else but it will be a factor in payoffs later. If a player gets the boot from a casino they are that much less valuable to the team, is that still fair? As far as BP backoffs go, it could be bad, but they are so rare its just noise in the equation. I have gotten backed of less in 14 years then those playing the game 6 months. Thats enough for me not to worry about the effects of a BP backoff. Thats not to say we don't try to prepare for it, but the worry is minimal....

I don't know where you've gotten that idea. All of the experienced players here have been backed off, and we keep on playing. I've gotten about 20, many of them at the same places where I keep on going back. This includes not just polite backoffs but escorted ones, and one bodily ejection. Big deal. You go next door and play, and come back on another shift if the game is good enough to justify it. Backoffs are nothing to fear, certainly not on a shoe game. Sure, in single deck you have to use a lot of cover and discretion because playable SD is as rare as it is valuable. But the BP method is used on shoe games, where backoffs are nearly a non-issue.

Hey thanks, that made me think of another reason for a team to play as individuals, you can use those methods on good SD and DD games too.

 

[Bojack1]

I don't know where you've gotten that idea. All of the experienced players here have been backed off, and we keep on playing. I've gotten about 20, many of them at the same places where I keep on going back. This includes not just polite backoffs but escorted ones, and one bodily ejection. Big deal. You go next door and play, and come back on another shift if the game is good enough to justify it. Backoffs are nothing to fear, certainly not on a shoe game. Sure, in single deck you have to use a lot of cover and discretion because playable SD is as rare as it is valuable. But the BP method is used on shoe games, where backoffs are nearly a non-issue.

Hey thanks, that made me think of another reason for a team to play as individuals, you can use those methods on good SD and DD games too.

I agree with the point of using team play as individuals on SD and DD, as I have stated many times before we do use that method when needed.

As far as backoffs not being a big deal to you, good for you. But I won't have players who get short shoed, or are careless, or who can't reach a certain expected value rate due to having to use extensive cover play on my team. If I were to believe what I read from those getting backed off, its a liability I would not want regardless of how many times they can go back and play. If this is something you can't handle or grasp too bad, I play this game for profit not approval. Others may do it differently, thats fine, it might work great for them. I will say this all EMFH teams I know end up in turmoil before any large profit is realized. Although that is a relative term, so that may be up for debate. We do both, with obvious more emphasis on BP play, but there has to be room for a certain amount of flexibility in ones mindset on playing to be what I would deem successful playing this game. Just my opinion, but it works for me.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I agree with the point of using team play as individuals on SD and DD, as I have stated many times before we do use that method when needed.

As far as backoffs not being a big deal to you, good for you. But I won't have players who get short shoed, or are careless, or who can't reach a certain expected value rate due to having to use extensive cover play on my team. If I were to believe what I read from those getting backed off, its a liability I would not want regardless of how many times they can go back and play. If this is something you can't handle or grasp too bad, I play this game for profit not approval. Others may do it differently, thats fine, it might work great for them. I will say this all EMFH teams I know end up in turmoil before any large profit is realized. Although that is a relative term, so that may be up for debate. We do both, with obvious more emphasis on BP play, but there has to be room for a certain amount of flexibility in ones mindset on playing to be what I would deem successful playing this game. Just my opinion, but it works for me.

Oh? And how many EMFH teams have been willing to identify themselves to you, and discuss their turmoil with you? Real players on teams do not discuss their activities. I for one will never discuss anyone's activities but my own.

All players who play with an advantage get backed off, sometimes. There are surveillance agents who know everything we know. Backoffs are nice to avoid, but obsessing with it and fearing it is not a way to play for profit. That is, assuming playing the game is the way you make your profit.

 

[Bojack1]

Oh? And how many EMFH teams have been willing to identify themselves to you, and discuss their turmoil with you? Real players on teams do not discuss their activities. I for one will never discuss anyone's activities but my own.

All players who play with an advantage get backed off, sometimes. There are surveillance agents who know everything we know. Backoffs are nice to avoid, but obsessing with it and fearing it is not a way to play for profit. That is, assuming playing the game is the way you make your profit.

There have been more than a few. Listen, just because you don't know who I am doesn't mean the ones that do in the blackjack community don't look to talk quite a bit. There is a lot of communicating between players and teams at this level. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with saying that because nothing can really be made out of it. It doesn't matter if you spout off about your activities you are inconsequential to anybodys bottomline. And I can speak in general terms about my team or others if I choose because it offers no personal insight into any of it. Your endless assumptions are tiresome. Yes I play for profit, I have to. It makes me a little less tolerant to ideas of not playing due to a backoff when it didn't have to be that way. I'm done with this issue it is getting boring as I have made my point clear many times. Carry it on if you wish, I don't have the time nor the want to debate your theoretical views.