Disguising a large unit spread

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

Arnold Snyder touches on it briefly in "Blackbelt In Blackjack", but I think it deserves more discussion. In one of his chapters he refers to a man who regularly places doubled, tripled and quadrupled small red chip bets in neutral counts but then starts sticking green ones under his red when the count goes up. Thus there isn't a major visual stack height difference when he is spreading to his maximum wagers in a high T/C count.

I believe he also waits until the true count climbs really high, like a plus 6 to 8 T/C. In this way his bets do not directly coincide with high counts at first glance. in fact he is trying to bet higher just as the count appears to be going down.

I did this last Spring by working my red chips from ten bucks up to $55.00 in neutral or other low counts. This is eleven chips. A fairly high stack to the dealers eyes. And by doubling chips but staying under a low threshold I had established the tendency of lowering and raising my chip size at whim.

Later on while playing a heads up double deck game I was able to spread two bets up to $200.00 each for a spell. This was at an Indian casino. i think the dealer kind of liked me too. Placing Green chips with a red topper she didn't called in "Chips" except when i did place a black which i did only rarely. I resisted coloring up except prior to bathroom trips after a particulalry good run.

Anyway coupling this technique with emphasis on game selection may be more valuable than learning advanced counts or multiple, confusing indice strategies. Just my experience.

Or maybe the dealer was just a sucker. Hard to say.

Did this with single deck heads up last year too. No one seemed to bat an eye although i only played short sessions. I won't play any single deck unless it is heads up. Just a rule i made for myself. Am almost about to make that specific condition for my double deck games too.

 

[Dopple]

Sky know

They say the topping with a red makes it look less but if they were really watching from the sky couldn't they see you were making a very strong effort to disguise your betting? Just my thoughts.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

They say the topping with a red makes it look less but if they were really watching from the sky couldn't they see you were making a very strong effort to disguise your betting? Just my thoughts.

Sure if they ever did a skills check. However that kind of play would only get red tagged after a long period of time. A suspicious dealer "company boy" would be more of a concern. The reason I look for friendly, chatty female dealers who aren't quite as sharp as the hot dealers. Not to diss women its just that the interpersonal dynamics of opposite sex conversation creates a natural diversion for players. So I believe anyway.

I think we sometimes over estimate the power of the eye in the sky. The people who evaluate it get low wages. The camera records a couple million more hours than ever gets examined.

 

[NchooseK]

They say the topping with a red makes it look less but if they were really watching from the sky couldn't they see you were making a very strong effort to disguise your betting? Just my thoughts.

Last time I played the all the dealers would pull out your green chips under the red chips and put them on top. Just be ready for that if you play somewhere else.

 

[kewljason]

Arnold Snyder touches on it briefly in "Blackbelt In Blackjack", but I think it deserves more discussion. In one of his chapters he refers to a man who regularly places doubled, tripled and quadrupled small red chip bets in neutral counts but then starts sticking green ones under his red when the count goes up. Thus there isn't a major visual stack height difference when he is spreading to his maximum wagers in a high T/C count.

I believe he also waits until the true count climbs really high, like a plus 6 to 8 T/C. In this way his bets do not directly coincide with high counts at first glance. in fact he is trying to bet higher just as the count appears to be going down.

I did this last Spring by working my red chips from ten bucks up to $55.00 in neutral or other low counts. This is eleven chips. A fairly high stack to the dealers eyes. And by doubling chips but staying under a low threshold I had established the tendency of lowering and raising my chip size at whim.

Later on while playing a heads up double deck game I was able to spread two bets up to $200.00 each for a spell. This was at an Indian casino. i think the dealer kind of liked me too. Placing Green chips with a red topper she didn't called in "Chips" except when i did place a black which i did only rarely. I resisted coloring up except prior to bathroom trips after a particulalry good run.

Anyway coupling this technique with emphasis on game selection may be more valuable than learning advanced counts or multiple, confusing indice strategies. Just my experience.

Or maybe the dealer was just a sucker. Hard to say.

Did this with single deck heads up last year too. No one seemed to bat an eye although i only played short sessions. I won't play any single deck unless it is heads up. Just a rule i made for myself. Am almost about to make that specific condition for my double deck games too.

I have always felt that this rainbow style of betting actually draws more attention because of the payouts. In most places the dealer has to spread out the different colored chips, so that the eye can see the payout, rather than just paying an equal stack. This spread payout can also draw the attention of the pit. To my way of thinking, anything out of the ordinary doesn't disguise. It draws attention. Additionally rainbow wagering slows down the game, which costs money.

 

[creeping panther]

Irish

Arnold Snyder touches on it briefly in "Blackbelt In Blackjack", but I think it deserves more discussion. In one of his chapters he refers to a man who regularly places doubled, tripled and quadrupled small red chip bets in neutral counts but then starts sticking green ones under his red when the count goes up. Thus there isn't a major visual stack height difference when he is spreading to his maximum wagers in a high T/C count.

I believe he also waits until the true count climbs really high, like a plus 6 to 8 T/C. In this way his bets do not directly coincide with high counts at first glance. in fact he is trying to bet higher just as the count appears to be going down.

I did this last Spring by working my red chips from ten bucks up to $55.00 in neutral or other low counts. This is eleven chips. A fairly high stack to the dealers eyes. And by doubling chips but staying under a low threshold I had established the tendency of lowering and raising my chip size at whim.

Later on while playing a heads up double deck game I was able to spread two bets up to $200.00 each for a spell. This was at an Indian casino. i think the dealer kind of liked me too. Placing Green chips with a red topper she didn't called in "Chips" except when i did place a black which i did only rarely. I resisted coloring up except prior to bathroom trips after a particulalry good run.

Anyway coupling this technique with emphasis on game selection may be more valuable than learning advanced counts or multiple, confusing indice strategies. Just my experience.

Or maybe the dealer was just a sucker. Hard to say.

Did this with single deck heads up last year too. No one seemed to bat an eye although i only played short sessions. I won't play any single deck unless it is heads up. Just a rule i made for myself. Am almost about to make that specific condition for my double deck games too.

Irish,

I have been doing this for years, and I did not need Snyder to tell me to do it! In fact I wrote all about it in a thread about a week ago that caused some stir. Yes, this does work great, but always keep the amounts even to make bets simple to pay.

CP

 

[Homeschool]

Irish,

I have been doing this for years, and I did not need Snyder to tell me to do it! In fact I wrote all about it in a thread about a week ago that caused some stir. Yes, this does work great, but always keep the amounts even to make bets simple to pay.

CP

And to make insurance easier to take :laugh:

 

[Martin Gayle]

Irish,
This is a normal way of trying to hide a bet spread. And it can be successful.

Others,
The point is to make the rainbow bet in a very high count only. You will only do it for a couple hands as you have probably reached a point where the count can only fall back to Earth, ie TC6 and up. Using it this way will only slow the game down marginally. And yes it is SOP for most joints to break down the stack you bet rather than make a stack in the dealers area then push it out while not as common as a breakdown it is not uncommon in dust joints or unafiliated places.

 

[kewljason]

Irish,
This is a normal way of trying to hide a bet spread. And it can be successful.

Others,
The point is to make the rainbow bet in a very high count only. You will only do it for a couple hands as you have probably reached a point where the count can only fall back to Earth, ie TC6 and up. Using it this way will only slow the game down marginally. And yes it is SOP for most joints to break down the stack you bet rather than make a stack in the dealers area then push it out while not as common as a breakdown it is not uncommon in dust joints or unafiliated places.

It may be a normal way of trying to hide, but if you are wagering $25, $50 a hand, move up to $100, $150 as count goes positive and then throw out $285, or $365. it is going to draw more attention. Odd payout, especially on BJ's and doubledowns, plus the game slows dramatically. Even the laziest of pit critters will wake up, come over and take notice when the dealer pays off a $365 blackjack wager with 5 black, 1 green, 4 red and a pink!

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

Irish,
This is a normal way of trying to hide a bet spread. And it can be successful.

Others,
The point is to make the rainbow bet in a very high count only. You will only do it for a couple hands as you have probably reached a point where the count can only fall back to Earth, ie TC6 and up. Using it this way will only slow the game down marginally. And yes it is SOP for most joints to break down the stack you bet rather than make a stack in the dealers area then push it out while not as common as a breakdown it is not uncommon in dust joints or unaffiliated places.

I'm looking at this and other ideas as more of a gold mine than memorizing long lists of indices or learning a level two count. Especially the idea of psyching out a dealer. Finding one who doesn't appear to be a "company boy".

Right now i test myself over and over at basic strategy and only find one or two errors per hundred. "Mistakes" on such marginal calls that they really aren't worth correcting.

Then there are my indice calls: Like whether to wait until +4 to stay on my hard fifteen or stay at some T/C lower. Not a whole lot of difference one way or the other. So am just pulling a variable GENERAL strategy: When the T/C goes up I will still hit my hard 12's through 14 but stay on anything fifteen & sixteen. Then when it really goes up? I stay on all stiff hands 12 through whatever.

The lower indexes? I either flat bet the min or go to the buffet.

This technique saves a whole ton of memorization of stuff I rarely use.

Thus: Finding favorable playing conditions is more my game. I ain't goin out and buying the best hunting equipment if there ain't enough deer in the woods!

 

[daddybo]

It may be a normal way of trying to hide, but if you are wagering $25, $50 a hand, move up to $100, $150 as count goes positive and then throw out $285, or $365. it is going to draw more attention. Odd payout, especially on BJ's and doubledowns, plus the game slows dramatically. Even the laziest of pit critters will wake up, come over and take notice when the dealer pays off a $365 blackjack wager with 5 black, 1 green, 4 red and a pink!

Generally when using "rainbow" stacks and ramping up I'll collect my "junk" from the BJ payouts and announce I'm trying to get rid of it. I always have a collection of whites on up. And Cp said it correctly... you normally make it work out to even amounts for payoffs where it makes sense to be using multiple chip denoms.

Ain't that right Homey? :laugh:

 

[bjcount]

I'm looking at this and other ideas as more of a gold mine than memorizing long lists of indices or learning a level two count. Especially the idea of psyching out a dealer. Finding one who doesn't appear to be a "company boy".

Right now i test myself over and over at basic strategy and only find one or two errors per hundred. "Mistakes" on such marginal calls that they really aren't worth correcting.

Then there are my indice calls: Like whether to wait until +4 to stay on my hard fifteen or stay at some T/C lower. Not a whole lot of difference one way or the other. So am just pulling a variable GENERAL strategy: When the T/C goes up I will still hit my hard 12's through 14 but stay on anything fifteen & sixteen. Then when it really goes up? I stay on all stiff hands 12 through whatever.

The lower indexes? I either flat bet the min or go to the buffet.

This technique saves a whole ton of memorization of stuff I rarely use.

Thus: Finding favorable playing conditions is more my game. I ain't goin out and buying the best hunting equipment if there are enough deer in the woods!

Call me MR. Arrogance but it doesn't take the best tools to get the job done correctly. It takes the knowledge of how to do it and adapting what you have to work with, with the conditions around you to get it done.

You can't pull gold from a rock if you don't have a hammer, but it surely sounds like your beating your head against the rock to try and pull the gold out.

You should memorize more and guess less.

BJC

ps: how can you possibly disguise a large unit spread going from $10 up to some barber pole of $200? using a rainbow?
keep the stack size consistant but use higher denom. chips... 3 red chips then 2grn+1 red then 2 blk+1 red ... their not blind chunky stacks attract more attention .... i've seen many single purple bets under a couple of green go unnoticed and thats what you want to strive for...

 

[kewljason]

I'm looking at this and other ideas as more of a gold mine than memorizing long lists of indices or learning a level two count. Especially the idea of psyching out a dealer. Finding one who doesn't appear to be a "company boy".

Right now i test myself over and over at basic strategy and only find one or two errors per hundred. "Mistakes" on such marginal calls that they really aren't worth correcting.

Then there are my indice calls: Like whether to wait until +4 to stay on my hard fifteen or stay at some T/C lower. Not a whole lot of difference one way or the other. So am just pulling a variable GENERAL strategy: When the T/C goes up I will still hit my hard 12's through 14 but stay on anything fifteen & sixteen. Then when it really goes up? I stay on all stiff hands 12 through whatever.

The lower indexes? I either flat bet the min or go to the buffet.

This technique saves a whole ton of memorization of stuff I rarely use.

Thus: Finding favorable playing conditions is more my game. I ain't goin out and buying the best hunting equipment if there ain't enough deer in the woods!

I just dont understand! You want to use rainbow wagering as some sort of substitute for learning indices??

Last month you were trying to tap into the unused portions of your brain, using ESP and precognition in an effort to predict the outcome of the next card. And yet, now, you are unwilling to use a portion of your brain to learn indices or a level 2 count, which can actually improve your game.

 

[Homeschool]

Generally when using "rainbow" stacks and ramping up I'll collect my "junk" from the BJ payouts and announce I'm trying to get rid of it. I always have a collection of whites on up. And Cp said it correctly... you normally make it work out to even amounts for payoffs where it makes sense to be using multiple chip denoms.

Ain't that right Homey? :laugh:

That's right :cry: . Live and learn, won't make that mistake again

Homeschool

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

I just dont understand! You want to use rainbow wagering as some sort of substitute for learning indices??

Last month you were trying to tap into the unused portions of your brain, using ESP and precognition in an effort to predict the outcome of the next card. And yet, now, you are unwilling to use a portion of your brain to learn indices or a level 2 count, which can actually improve your game.

I see a "penny wise pound foolish" concept spread around this board at times.

What is worse, missing a few super marginal indice calls or finding a table where you can spread 20 to 1?

Just like people who learn all sorts of level 2 counts, gazillions of indices and then sit down at a table with 60% penetration.

Stupid! Ain't "no deer" in them woods.

As for using a little pre-cog decision making? You decided to pick and choose from my posts and put words in my mouth. A typical nuisance internet troll technique. Not worthy of a reply but out of habit I will bite.

The pre cog calls I make are only on the most marginal of decisions. "Crap shoots" and what not. Like whether to hit or stay at +4 T/C on a stiff fifteen vs dealer 7 or higher. In fact I've had good fortune making these calls and have recently felt comfortable enough to keep records of my hit vs. stay situations based upon intuition. These show promise and a slightly higher level of accuracy than using pure statistics of probability.

If you want to make useful criticism try and actually freaking READ my posts and decide if the examples I've chosen indicate choices of significance.

Like choosing a table with good penetration, favorable rules and an easy going less experienced dealer. The odds of staying in that game and winning are far superior to learning some level 2 counting system with dozens of indice changes.

But this all is just common sense. Something an internet troll has no use for.

 

[Deathclutch]

I see a "penny wise pound foolish" concept spread around this board at times.

What is worse, missing a few super marginal indice calls or finding a table where you can spread 20 to 1?

Just like people who learn all sorts of level 2 counts, gazillions of indices and then sit down at a table with 60% penetration.

Stupid! Ain't "no deer" in them woods.

As for using a little pre-cog decision making? You decided to pick and choose from my posts and put words in my mouth. A typical nuisance internet troll technique. Not worthy of a reply but out of habit I will bite.

The pre cog calls I make are only on the most marginal of decisions. "Crap shoots" and what not. Like whether to hit or stay at +4 T/C on a stiff fifteen vs dealer 7 or higher. In fact I've had good fortune making these calls and have recently felt comfortable enough to keep records of my hit vs. stay situations based upon intuition. These show promise and a slightly higher level of accuracy than using pure statistics of probability.

If you want to make useful criticism try and actually freaking READ my posts and decide if the examples I've chosen indicate choices of significance.

Like choosing a table with good penetration, favorable rules and an easy going less experienced dealer. The odds of staying in that game and winning are far superior to learning some level 2 counting system with dozens of indice changes.

But this all is just common sense. Something an internet troll has no use for.

Well if you have all these advantages why not learn a level 2 and some indices and build upon this advantage. A guy that has it all figured out shouldn't have trouble adding a few numbers to his game.

 

[Meistro]

Constantly misplaying hands that occur very frequently (15 / 16 vs dealer 7-10) will give away a TON of your advantage. Far more than the illusary gains from barberpoling. You can spread 20-1 at any table that has a max 20 times higher than the minimum; how long you can continue to do that depends on a lot of circumstances. You are right that they will allow you to spread like that longer with your style, but that is because it will take you so much longer to reach their threshold of pain with your quasi voodoo index plays.

 

[kewljason]

As for using a little pre-cog decision making? You decided to pick and choose from my posts and put words in my mouth. A typical nuisance internet troll technique.

But this all is just common sense. Something an internet troll has no use for.

You're quick to go to name-calling when someone questions your methods or offers advice you don't like or has a differing opinion. It's the second time you have done so with me. After the first time, you apoligized, so I continued dialog with you. A mistake I won't make again. Best of ah...luck to you.

 

[Tarzan]

Scary

I have seen a LOT of posts on here that are a little scary to me. Things like "Sure, a $1000 bankroll is enough... I turned $1000 into over $100,000 in only 18 months and never went beyond a 5% ROR!" (punch this one into a calculator and see what you get... did the waitress bring a bedpan to avoid the bathroom break while you played 24/7 for 18 months straight with no sleep for that less than 5% ROR?) or "Yep, I saw that movie 21, so now just a few months later, I am a blackjack pro" or "I have done really well doubling down on the 7!" or "Sure, I'll ALWAYS play a 6:5 singledeck over a shoe game because how many blackjacks do I get ANYWAY!" and many other things that have made me scratch my head wondering and unable to come up with any conclusion other than "WTF?". I avoid responding or adding fuel to the fire is all and think about how I would love to own a casino rather than just playing in them.

 

[NchooseK]

The pre cog calls I make are only on the most marginal of decisions. "Crap shoots" and what not. Like whether to hit or stay at +4 T/C on a stiff fifteen vs dealer 7 or higher. In fact I've had good fortune making these calls and have recently felt comfortable enough to keep records of my hit vs. stay situations based upon intuition. These show promise and a slightly higher level of accuracy than using pure statistics of probability.

Staying on a 15 v dealer 7 with TC +4 "based upon intuition" is ludicrous. Claiming that "These show promise and a slightly higher level of accuracy than using pure statistics of probability." is even more stupid. The whole point of card carding is using probability to gain the highest EV possible. Unless you have a superpower to see what card is coming next, all you are being is a typical gambler, not a card counter. Keep all the records you want, but anyone can run a simulation and show you will lose money in the long run.