Doubling down 11 and getting an ace

[Lonesome Gambler]

Basic strategy is not a function of your card counting system, it's dependent on the game. ENHC games have a different strategy due to the loss of extra bets (eg. double downs) when the dealer has a natural. See the basic strategy engine on this site for the correct strategy for the game you're playing.

 

[Sucker]

Why does KO basic strategy tell you to double 11 vs 10?
I play in UK and follow BS from KO book. Why would it tell me the wrong thing?
Is it because KO assumes dealer checks for BJ whereas in UK it's different as dealer only checks after you've finished your turn?

Yes; most counting books are written under the assumption that the reader will almost always be playing STANDARD BJ rules. I've never read the KO book, but I'd guess that there's probably someplace in the book that discusses ENHC.

What does ENHC stand for?

It stands for European No Hole Card. This game is mostly prevalent in the U.K. and across Europe, hence the name. The identifying distinction between ENHC and all other variations of BJ is that if you double down or split and the dealer has a blackjack, you lose BOTH bets.

In the U.S. and in most other countries, the game is dealt as such:
The dealer gives everyone two cards, including HIMSELF. (His 2nd card is dealt face down, so that no one can see what it is. If his 1st card is an ace or a ten, he then peeks at his second card to see if he has BJ (sometimes manually but usually with the aid of a "peeking device" that's built into the table). If he has blackjack, the hand is immediately over and he scoops up everyone's bets. This is why you can never lose both double down bets vs. a dealer's BJ - you're never given the CHANCE to double.

Sorry for the lengthy and possibly OVER-explanation, but I sensed some confusion on your part and wasn't sure whether or not you fully understood the rules as played elsewhere than the U.K. Forgive me if I'm wrong about this.

 

[Mr. T]

Why does KO basic strategy tell you to double 11 vs 10?
I play in UK and follow BS from KO book. Why would it tell me the wrong thing?

Is it because KO assumes dealer checks for BJ whereas in UK it's different as dealer only checks after you've finished your turn?

What does ENHC stand for?

If you have to ask What does ENHC stand for? then you better take 2 steps back first before playing any more BJ. Just the other day as I was watching my fellow player, a consultant medical doctor hit his 14 vs 10 I told him he should surrender instead. Ah! he says Stanford Wong says to hit 14 vs 10. I told him but that is American BJ and what they are playing here is European BJ.

I would say practically all books and websites are for the American BJ. The Wizard of odds has the best material on European BJ which is played by everybody else in the world outside the US.

 

[k_c]

I guess if (and ONLY if) you're ALSO keeping a side count of aces, and all or almost all twenty four of them were out, then there WOULD be a number at which to double. But If your counting skills are THAT good, you shouldn't be playing in England with rules that are that shitty anyway.

For the purpose of this discussion, I think it's pretty safe to say that for ENHC blackjack, when the dealer takes both bets if he has a BJ, you should never double against a ten or an ace.

Some data to support a double 11 v T ENHC
Hi-Lo index = ~+4 around mid shoe of a 6 deck shoe

Shoe comp (2-A) {11,11,11,11,11,12,12,12,52,13} = 156 cards
Pre-deal Hi-Lo RC = +10, Pre-deal Hi-Lo TC = +3.3

Post deal data versus 10 up card
2-9, RC = +10, TC = +3.4, Hit EV = +3.762%, Dbl EV = +3.201%
3-8, RC = +10, TC = +3.4, Hit EV = +3.932%, Dbl EV = +3.759%
4-7, RC = +10, TC = +3.4, Hit EV = +3.993%, Dbl EV = +3.947%
5-6, RC = +11, TC = +3.7, Hit EV = +4.087%, Dbl EV = +3.957%

Average TC = 3.5, Hit EV + 3.944%, Dbl EV = 3.716%
Average (Dbl EV - Hit EV) = -0.228%
_____________________________________________________________

Shoe comp (2-A) {10,10,10,10,10,12,12,12,56,14} = 156 cards
Pre-deal Hi-Lo RC = +20, Pre-deal Hi-Lo TC = +6.7

Post deal data versus 10 up card
2-9, RC = +20, TC = +6.8, Hit EV = +4.959%, Dbl EV = +6.311%
3-8, RC = +20, TC = +6.8, Hit EV = +5.170%, Dbl EV = +6.867%
4-7, RC = +20, TC = +6.8, Hit EV = +5.205%, Dbl EV = +7.070%
5-6, RC = +21, TC = +7.1, Hit EV = +5.350%, Dbl EV = +6.991%

Average TC = 6.9, Hit EV + 5.171%, Dbl EV = 6.810%
Average (Dbl EV - Hit EV) = +1.639%
_____________________________________________________________

Interpolate to find approx TC when (Dbl EV - Hit EV) = 0

Index TC = 3.5 + (.228/1.867)*(6.9-3.5)
Index TC = +3.9

Above data can be duplicated by running my cdca program. Enter 6 decks, check ENHC checkbox, input above shoe composition(s), input above player hands, and click 'Compute' for each player hand. This is a link to the program.

The shoe compositions are a reasonable representation of an average composition relative to Hi-Lo with no other knowledge other than the Hi-Lo running count and that about a half of a 6 deck shoe remains.

 

[Young Man]

If you have to ask What does ENHC stand for? then you better take 2 steps back first before playing any more BJ. Just the other day as I was watching my fellow player, a consultant medical doctor hit his 14 vs 10 I told him he should surrender instead. Ah! he says Stanford Wong says to hit 14 vs 10. I told him but that is American BJ and what they are playing here is European BJ.

I would say practically all books and websites are for the American BJ. The Wizard of odds has the best material on European BJ which is played by everybody else in the world outside the US.

No worries, surrendering is rarely an option in UK so no need to think about it. I understood ENHC fine (though not the implications), the acronym was just jargon to me, now it's not. Now i also understand why i should no longer double on 11 vs 10 anymore. I've only been flat betting anyway as still need to perfect my counting in a casino environment. So far up over 100% due to favourable variance, and even if i was losing, the amount would be minimal. For every unfavourable variance story, there's a favourable one . . . Every cloud ...

 

[UK-21]

I guess if (and ONLY if) you're ALSO keeping a side count of aces, and all or almost all twenty four of them were out, then there WOULD be a number at which to double. But If your counting skills are THAT good, you shouldn't be playing in England with rules that are that shitty anyway.

For the purpose of this discussion, I think it's pretty safe to say that for ENHC blackjack, when the dealer takes both bets if he has a BJ, you should never double against a ten or an ace.

The rules in most places in the UK aren't that shitty. It's rare, if ever, that a house will play H17, and the "only insure a natural" rule makes little difference in practice (been discussed at length in the past). Eight decks have started to appear in some places in London owned by the Harrahs mob, although there are plenty of other places to play within a stone's throw.

I don't think that keeping an ace side count is that difficult, it's just that the occasions when it will beneficial (such as doubling against a dealer 10) are few and far between. I reckon because of the ENHC effect, Hi-Lo isn't the best counting system to use in the UK, although personally I can't be ar$ed to learn a different one. If I was playing seriously I would though.