Full time US players - do you pay income tax?

kewljason

Well-Known Member
Enigma said:
Like I said, 6 figures minimum. I do have a family, and I like my discretionary income.
I think 6 figures is the absolute maximum a solo player, strickly counting can make. I am basing that on my own results. I play at a level that is pretty well tolerated as long as you aren't stupid and greedy. I have earned upper 5 figures the past 2 years. My expected earnings for the time I play is also under 6 figures, so while it is possible that I have a banner year sometime and reach that mark, there is no reason to expect to. I play a lot by most people's standard and can't imagine anyone putting in more time than myself, so I am concluding that at my level of play this is the ceiling.

Now of course you could play at a higher level, but then you have less places available to take that action, resulting in less time actually played, meaning higher hourly rate but less hours. Plus you will draw more heat at the places you play which will effect how long you are able to play at all.

You could limit yourself to better games, but again, less places available meaning less action.

So while their are players making 6 figures and above regularly, I believe the majority of them are playing on/with a team or using advanced methods beyond just counting. Again, my conclusion: strictly counting, playing solo, 6 figures is the absolute limit and few people probably hit that. :sad:
 

bigplayer

Well-Known Member
kewljason said:
yeah, being that it new, I wonder how many of us that claim that will get called on it by low level agents not knowing what they are doing. :confused: My financial guy didn't know about this ruling until I recently emailed it to him. :eek: I know that's a bad sign and it's probably time to look for a new guy. :laugh:
I'll add, if you have another job in addition to gambling you are asking for your Pro Status to be disallowed. The IRS wants gambling to be your nearly exclusive way of making a living regardless of how you run the business. If it's part time they will automatically deem that you aren't doing it with the required continuity. Some have fought this and won...some have not and have been stung...particularly machine players who live in states with no method to offset gambling wins with losses (Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin and others). They have to pay full tax on the total of all of their W2-G jackpots regardless of their final year-end result.
 

Eye of the Tiger

Well-Known Member
kewljason said:
Well he isn't exactly my tax man. As 21, suggested, I basically handle my own taxes and financial stuff. I am to not trusting enough to turn things like that over to someone else. :eek: But, this guy is a financial adviser and he looked over my taxes last year. He advised and helped me refinace my mortgage and a couple other things. He was recommended by a player on another site to me and actually has other clients that are professional gamblers. However when I read about the new tax law and mentioned it to him and his response was "can you email it to me". Well that was an eye opener. lol :eek:
I find a lot of your statements to be quite assuming to what is the truth. I will just assume you do not pay taxes but just won't own up. For a person handling his own taxes you are quite ill informed. Do you send est taxes if not you have a problem. Here is a little read to help you or get you facts straight.

Self-employment tax is a social security and Medicare tax. Self-employment tax is imposed on self-employment income, which equals the net earnings from self-employment derived by an individual, other than nonresident aliens, during the tax year. Net earnings from self-employment derived by an individual is the gross income derived by an individual from any trade or business carried on by the individual, reduced by income tax deductions attributable to the trade or business. Next week’s post will be dedicated to tax deductions attributable to the trade or business of gambling.


Today’s first takeaway: Because professional gamblers, but not recreational gamblers, are engaged in the trade or business of gambling, professional gamblers must report and pay self-employment tax on gambling winnings, but recreational gamblers do not. Also, generally speaking, income earned from poker coaching is subject to the self-employment tax.


Imposing the self-employment tax makes sense: If you earn wages from an employer, that employer is required to withhold a portion of your income for social security and Medicare and pay it to Uncle Sam. These withheld amounts are called withholding taxes. If you earn income for yourself, there is no employer withholding the tax. The rough equivalent to withholding tax is the self-employment tax.


There are two elements to self-employment tax: (1) social security (old-age, survivors, and disability insurance); and (2) Medicare (hospital insurance). Generally, self-employment income is taxed at a rate of 12.4% for the first element, and at a rate of 2.9% for the second element, totaling a rate of 15.3%. Note that one-half of the self-employment tax is allowable as a deduction in computing adjusted gross income. Also note that if total net earnings from self-employment for the tax year are less than $400, there is no self-employment tax.


Those are the general rules regarding how to figure out the self-employment tax amount. The next point to discuss is how to report self-employment income and pay the tax thereon.


Today’s second takeaway: A taxpayer expecting to owe self-employment tax of $1,000 or more for the tax year generally has to make estimated tax payments during the tax year. A taxpayer must also attach a Schedule SE to his/her Form 1040 when filing for the year.


Federal income tax is a pay-as-you-go tax. Taxpayers must pay tax as income is earned or received during the year. Tax is paid either by withholding or estimated taxes. As discussed, professional gamblers do not have their winnings withheld, so they must make estimated tax payments if they expect to owe tax of $1,000 or more when filing.


To ascertain estimated tax, the taxpayer must figure out expected adjusted gross income taxable income, taxable income, taxes, deductions, and credits for the year. Typically, using the prior year’s income, deductions, and credits is a good starting point. Of course, if you plan to double or triple the amount of time spent playing online poker from the previous year, you should take that into consideration. Form 1040-ES has a worksheet to figure out estimated tax.


There are four payment periods for estimated tax payments during each tax year. Yes, that means taxpayers with self-employment income must make estimated tax payments to the IRS four times a year. If the taxpayer does not pay enough tax by each of the due dates, penalties may be imposed.


Ultimately, don’t treat the self-employment tax lightly. If you are a professional gambler or a poker coach and haven’t been keeping up with estimated tax payments, you should start doing so.
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
I had no intention of going into this much detail, but yes I pay taxes and yes I pay quarterly. It is a learning process for me. Sometimes the lessons can be expensive. Two years ago I was hit with a penalty (which you neglected to mention) for under estimating my payments. My thought process at the time was to underestimate the first 3 quarters, and catch up in the last quarter, just in case the last quarter was a very negative quarter. In such a case a refund would be due and I wanted to eliminate the government holding my money while I waited for a refund. Apparently this practice is extremely frowned upon :rolleyes: and I was hit with a penalty. It was explained to me that your estimated need to be pretty close, like 90% of what is actually due. This seems pretty crazy to me, because for a short term period like 3 months, how are we supposed to estimate what we will make. But the government doesn't seem to want to take that into consideration.

Now what I did not know and have learned from your post is that I am paying into social security. I just assumed I was paying to help keep the government running. :eek: For the most part this assumption is based on the fact that I have a social security statement from 3 years ago, showing what has been paid into social security by year and the last year showing anything is the last year I was employed. Perhaps payments from self employment tax are kept separate? I don't know. I guess I will have to look into that.

This is one of the aspects I really don't care for. I don't want to spend enormous amounts of time learning the tax code in and out. I did not choose to be an accountant by trade. And yet I am not comfortable turning all of my finances over to someone else to handle, only to find out somewhere down the road that you have hired Bernie Madoff and are not only broke, but owe taxes. :laugh:

So while I am not thrilled at your assumption that I would be a criminal by not paying taxes, I have found your post very useful. :)
 

bigplayer

Well-Known Member
kewljason said:
I had no intention of going into this much detail, but yes I pay taxes and yes I pay quarterly. It is a learning process for me. Sometimes the lessons can be expensive. Two years ago I was hit with a penalty (which you neglected to mention) for under estimating my payments. My thought process at the time was to underestimate the first 3 quarters, and catch up in the last quarter, just in case the last quarter was a very negative quarter. In such a case a refund would be due and I wanted to eliminate the government holding my money while I waited for a refund. Apparently this practice is extremely frowned upon :rolleyes: and I was hit with a penalty. It was explained to me that your estimated need to be pretty close, like 90% of what is actually due. This seems pretty crazy to me, because for a short term period like 3 months, how are we supposed to estimate what we will make. But the government doesn't seem to want to take that into consideration.

Now what I did not know and have learned from your post is that I am paying into social security. I just assumed I was paying to help keep the government running. :eek: For the most part this assumption is based on the fact that I have a social security statement from 3 years ago, showing what has been paid into social security by year and the last year showing anything is the last year I was employed. Perhaps payments from self employment tax are kept separate? I don't know. I guess I will have to look into that.

This is one of the aspects I really don't care for. I don't want to spend enormous amounts of time learning the tax code in and out. I did not choose to be an accountant by trade. And yet I am not comfortable turning all of my finances over to someone else to handle, only to find out somewhere down the road that you have hired Bernie Madoff and are not only broke, but owe taxes. :laugh:

So while I am not thrilled at your assumption that I would be a criminal by not paying taxes, I have found your post very useful. :)
You are better off holding extra in the first quarter and then adjust downward if the year isn't looking that great. You should know that if you hit a jackpot and have the casino withhold the standard 28% on your W2-G that amount is considered to be evenly spread out through the year thus you can make the required quarterly automatic payments without having to make them by occasionally having a casino hold out 28% on a jackpot. If you only play tables you either have to send in the quarterly payments or you may or may not come out ahead just filing as a non-professional.

That said, the governments unfair treatment of gambling income allows many professionals to feel zero guilt about bending the rules to their favor. It is, after all, a cash business and when cash is involved simplicity does tend to reign. It is very easy and practically impossible for the IRS to catch a table games player who decides to just net out actual wins and losses on form 1040 who just takes the standard deduction...even if the income is deposited the net inflows and outflows of cash will match declared income.
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
bigplayer said:
You are better off holding extra in the first quarter and then adjust downward if the year isn't looking that great.

That said, the governments unfair treatment of gambling income allows many professionals to feel zero guilt about bending the rules to their favor.
The government holding my money, while paying no interest is one of my pet peeves. I try to avoid that. :eek:

My tendency to not bend the rules has less to do about feelings of guilt and more to do with my desire to pick the location and style in which I live, rather than have it assigned to me. :laugh:
 

Friendo

Well-Known Member
Glad I have a 9-to-5 gig

With a regular old job, I can boost my withholding to cover the taxes on my massive, epic yearly blackjack haul here in Colorado. We're talkin' about a sum in the mid four figures! No way I could keep that kind of cash on my person if I wanted to.:grin:

If you can't swim with the big fish, stay out of Black Hawk. Do you have the belly to get the money out the count goes high? Red action - that's how we like it! :eyepatch:

Sometimes when I'm in Black Hawk I wonder whether it's worth it to the casino to pay any employee to catch undesirables such as myself. Assuming minimum wage, is there any return in catching the occasional counter earning 3x minimum wage?

I prefer to have my formidable low-five-figure (!) bankroll in the bank, ready for any investment opportunity. There just aren't any good investments you can buy into with a roll of $100 bills.

Pay your taxes, kids. Under-the-table money usually gets spent on consumption, which is not investment.
 

apex

Well-Known Member
More Kewl talk!

The penalty for not paying quarterly taxes for the self employed is only 6% of what you owe per year. I have never bothered to do estimated quarterly taxes. Kewl, IMO you would be slightly better off having that money working for you in your bankroll and paying the 6% at the end of the year. Otherwise, you need to pay at least 90% of what you paid in taxes last year to completely avoid penalty (unless you are going to make less money this year, then you can pay whatever you owe.)

I also have a quick question for you. Do you use any advanced methods? I have never seen you talk about them. No need to go into detail, I am just curious.
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
apex said:
I also have a quick question for you. Do you use any advanced methods? I have never seen you talk about them. No need to go into detail, I am just curious.
Not really. I am basically a straight counter, playing very elementary, with a strong emphasis on getting away from negative counts and playing more positive counts. If I find a dealer showing his hole card, I take advantage of it, but I don't scout and seek out that situation as many do. I also was doing some very elementary tracking of aces through the shuffle for a while until MR Bo, convinced me that I was probably doing myself more harm than good. :eek:
 

NightStalker

Well-Known Member
What's the aggregate wins/losses?

kewljason said:
I had no intention of going into this much detail, but yes I pay taxes and yes I pay quarterly. It is a learning process for me. Sometimes the lessons can be expensive. Two years ago I was hit with a penalty (which you neglected to mention) for under estimating my payments. My thought process at the time was to underestimate the first 3 quarters, and catch up in the last quarter, just in case the last quarter was a very negative quarter. In such a case a refund would be due and I wanted to eliminate the government holding my money while I waited for a refund. Apparently this practice is extremely frowned upon :rolleyes: and I was hit with a penalty. It was explained to me that your estimated need to be pretty close, like 90% of what is actually due. This seems pretty crazy to me, because for a short term period like 3 months, how are we supposed to estimate what we will make. But the government doesn't seem to want to take that into consideration.

Now what I did not know and have learned from your post is that I am paying into social security. I just assumed I was paying to help keep the government running. :eek: For the most part this assumption is based on the fact that I have a social security statement from 3 years ago, showing what has been paid into social security by year and the last year showing anything is the last year I was employed. Perhaps payments from self employment tax are kept separate? I don't know. I guess I will have to look into that.

This is one of the aspects I really don't care for. I don't want to spend enormous amounts of time learning the tax code in and out. I did not choose to be an accountant by trade. And yet I am not comfortable turning all of my finances over to someone else to handle, only to find out somewhere down the road that you have hired Bernie Madoff and are not only broke, but owe taxes. :laugh:

So while I am not thrilled at your assumption that I would be a criminal by not paying taxes, I have found your post very useful. :)
Aggro session wins you have reported. Just trying to get an idea of what numbers for following may raise a Red flag:
1) Sum of all winning sessions as income?
2) Sum of all losing sessions as deductibles?
3) Max win in an session (non-W2g/non-CTR)?

Can anyone provide numbers which are below the radar?
Please email me if you are uncomfortable in giving numbers here. Note: I am not asking for your figures.
 

moo321

Well-Known Member
I report everything, and I have perfect records of every session. And so does everyone on this site, to my knowledge.
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
moo321 said:
I report everything, and I have perfect records of every session. And so does everyone on this site, to my knowledge.

To paraphrase the preamble of the constitution- everyone keeps perfect records, but some are more perfect than others.
 
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