H17 games

[21gunsalute]

Why are we arguing the percent increase of the HE going from S17 to H17? This is not a very relevant statistic to consider. How about a game with a .01% HE and a .05% HE? Now its a 500% increase! Does this mean the game is bad? No. All that matters is that there is a .22% OTT increase in HE that must be overcome in order to obtain an advantage for the player.

Exactly.

 

[SleightOfHand]

Well all the casinos in this area are H17, and while not really desirable I must say that it seems the multitudes here over-react to these games. On many nights you never even see it come into play. One factor that seems to be overlooked here is that it often comes into play when the dealer has a 6 showing and you're sitting on a stiff hand. When she turns over that Ace you're glad she has to hit again.

Describing a single event from the various options doesn't make the option any better. More often that not, the H17 rule will hurt you.

But with fewer 10s left you'll be making minimum bets. I agree it works in the favor of the house, but it's not like it's such an unfavorable rule it should be avoided at all costs. I'd rather play S17 but there aren't any such games around here. H17 will bite you once in a great while, but when the count is high it's unlikely to bite you. Like I said, many nights you never even see the dealer with a soft 17 and when the dealer does have soft 17 and hits most of the time it will have no effect on winning or losing the hand.

I agree that just because a game is H17, does not mean that the game is not favorable. I on occasion play H17 games (usually due to the reason you described: availability of other games). In high counts, the H17 rule does not make a huge difference, but it DOES make a difference and cannot be discounted. The low frequency of the event is not an argument for H17. 6 card charlie's are also low frequency, yet it is a good rule for the player that is taken into consideration when choosing games.

 

[tribute]

Okay let's put the shoe on the other foot. If you're playing H17 and want to switch to S17 how much advantage do you gain?


House advantage for H17: 0.66 %
House advantage for S17: 0.44 %
An increase of .22%
.22%/.66%=.33% or 1/3
Any questions?

Now you're talk'in. (See my edited post.) We are saying the same thing!

 

[Automatic Monkey]

To put it in perspective, look at the Basic Strategy charts for H17 and S17. They're different enough to make a difference in BS, right? That said, don't be afraid of H17, you'll find very few pitch games that don't have it, but have a healthy respect for the difference it makes.

I must say though, it's probably the most satisfying feeling in BJ. Huge count, huge bet, you split 10's or double something and end up stiffed. Dealer shows a soft 17, then hits it with a 9, then adios, sucker. :grin:

 

[21gunsalute]

Now you're talk'in. (See my edited post.) We are saying the same thing!

The point is the .22% difference is the relevant number. Comparing 2 small fractional numbers can sometimes give deceptive, differing and basically meaningless numbers percentage wise.

 

[tribute]

S17 vs H17, 6 deck vs 2D

Considering the following rules:
S17
DOA
DAS
RSA
No SUR

Which would you rather play? 6 decks with 75% pen, or 2D with 50% pen?

 

[Renzey]

When you have a huge count, the difference between an H17 and S17 game is negligible, due to the extra time the dealer will end up busting a soft 17.

That's what I was thinking too. Also that at a high count, there won't be as many small cards for the dealer to improve her hand with and more 10's to just convert her into a hard 17.

So I ran a couple of 6 deck sims using modified decks to load the full shoe at a count of +4 TC. Sim #1 was S17 and sim #2 was H17. Both sims flat bet and played proper basic strategy for a +4 TC. To my surprise and disappointment, there was still a +0.18% difference between the two.

 

[assume_R]

That's what I was thinking too. Also that at a high count, there won't be as many small cards for the dealer to improve her hand with and more 10's to just convert her into a hard 17.

So I ran a couple of 6 deck sims using modified decks to load the full shoe at a count of +4 TC. Sim #1 was S17 and sim #2 was H17. Both sims flat bet and played proper basic strategy for a +4 TC. To my surprise and disappointment, there was still a +0.18% difference between the two.

Hmm I wonder at what count the difference becomes negligible?

 

[Blue Efficacy]

That's what I was thinking too. Also that at a high count, there won't be as many small cards for the dealer to improve her hand with and more 10's to just convert her into a hard 17.

So I ran a couple of 6 deck sims using modified decks to load the full shoe at a count of +4 TC. Sim #1 was S17 and sim #2 was H17. Both sims flat bet and played proper basic strategy for a +4 TC. To my surprise and disappointment, there was still a +0.18% difference between the two.

What if you throw in some index plays?

 

[SleightOfHand]

What if you throw in some index plays?

I believe he included the player playing the proper strategy for a +4 TC (Counter's Basic Strategy). There will be additional changes as the TC gets higher, but it should be negligible.

Although Renzey did not specify the deck composition or count system of the loaded deck, I would think one of the possible reasons for the still noticable difference in advantage is in the increase in aces. More aces means more soft hands since even at high counts, the number of small cards outweigh the number of large cards (+3 HiLo has only ~1/3 tens distributed in the deck).

 

[SleightOfHand]

Hmm I wonder at what count the difference becomes negligible?

Just doing a quick compare between a S17 and H17 game in CVCX, I still see a .06% difference in a 6D H17 DAS and 6D S17 DAS games for counts of >=+12 zen. I also noted a .07% difference for the equivalent DD games. This is to be expected due to a slight increase in soft hands.

 

[bigplayer]

We're both saying the same thing. It's 50% more in terms of percentage of increase and 0.2% more in terms of raw increase in disadvantage. Your original post wasn't clear on this.

OK. I will try this again.

House advantage begins: 0.00 %
House advantage for S17: 0.44 %
House advantage for H17: 0.66 %

Based on what I learned in skool, 0.66 is 50% higher than 0.44, not 1/3 or 33% higher. (1/3 of 0.44 would only be 0.1466 more.)


So, according to my understanding, the house advantage for H17 is 0.22 more than the house advantage for S17, or 50% more, not 1/3 more.

There is another way of stating this:
Beginning with the 0.66 % house advantage for H17, S17 house advantage is 1/3 LESS than H17 house advantage. (0.44 is 1/3 less than 0.66) (This being YOUR point, 21gunsalute)

 

[Count Backula]

close

Regardless of what the BS engine says, the actual HE increase with the H17 rule is somewhere around 0.21%.