H17 vs S17
- Thread starter Harman
- Start date
checkmugged
Active Member
For the player it's better if the dealer S17.
Checkmugged
Checkmugged
QFIT
Well-Known Member
sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
you can put in all kinds of rule setting for a game and come up with the house edge using this link:Harman said:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bjbse.php
golfnut101
Well-Known Member
H17
I'll take H17 w/ exc pen over S17 and avg pen anyday.
I'll take H17 w/ exc pen over S17 and avg pen anyday.
callipygian
Well-Known Member
This is probably more detailed a response than was asked for, but there is a lot of confusion among the public on whether H17 is good for the player or good for the house and hopefully this will educate a few lurkers. As a matter of fact, the misconception that H17 is good is so popular that Casino Royale in Vegas proudly proclaims, "BEST RULES ON BLACKJACK - DEALER HITS SOFT 17, DOUBLE AFTER SPLIT, RESPLIT ANY TWO CARDS" in its marquee.
People have this intuition that "pat" hands (17-21) are good, and that's probably the root of the misbelief that H17 is good for the player - dealer has to hit a pat hand, and gets a second chance at busting.
The key to note here is that a hand of 17 - for either the dealer or the player - SUCKS.
(a) Player hard 17 is a terrible hand, with EV's ranging from -0.48 to +0.01 on S17 (-0.27 vs. random dealer card), and -0.52 to -0.01 on H17 (-0.27 vs. random dealer card). As a matter of fact, most people don't realize that hard 17 vs. dealer A is surrender-worthy in H17 games! Player soft 17 is better, but only wins again dealer 3-7, with EV's of -0.20 to +0.26 and an overall EV of -0.04 vs. a random dealer card. It's still an overall loser.
(b) Dealer 17 is a terrible hand as well. If you knew dealer had a 17 every single time, basic strategy (hit everything below 16, stand on 17 and above, split all AA, 22, 33, 66, 77, 88) would give you a whopping +0.29 EV! If dealer were dealt a 7 as an upcard every single time, basic strategy would still give you a +0.10 EV!
17 is a WEAK hand, for the dealer and for the player.
Now being sure of that, it's pretty easy to see why H17 is a bad rule for the player - it allows the dealer to take a weak hand and have a good chance of making a decent hand.
When dealer has soft 17, there's a 45% chance he will end up with an 18-21 (non-crap hands), a 34% chance he will end up with 17 again, and only a 21% chance of busting. You WANT dealer to stand on all 17's.
People have this intuition that "pat" hands (17-21) are good, and that's probably the root of the misbelief that H17 is good for the player - dealer has to hit a pat hand, and gets a second chance at busting.
The key to note here is that a hand of 17 - for either the dealer or the player - SUCKS.
(a) Player hard 17 is a terrible hand, with EV's ranging from -0.48 to +0.01 on S17 (-0.27 vs. random dealer card), and -0.52 to -0.01 on H17 (-0.27 vs. random dealer card). As a matter of fact, most people don't realize that hard 17 vs. dealer A is surrender-worthy in H17 games! Player soft 17 is better, but only wins again dealer 3-7, with EV's of -0.20 to +0.26 and an overall EV of -0.04 vs. a random dealer card. It's still an overall loser.
(b) Dealer 17 is a terrible hand as well. If you knew dealer had a 17 every single time, basic strategy (hit everything below 16, stand on 17 and above, split all AA, 22, 33, 66, 77, 88) would give you a whopping +0.29 EV! If dealer were dealt a 7 as an upcard every single time, basic strategy would still give you a +0.10 EV!
17 is a WEAK hand, for the dealer and for the player.
Now being sure of that, it's pretty easy to see why H17 is a bad rule for the player - it allows the dealer to take a weak hand and have a good chance of making a decent hand.
When dealer has soft 17, there's a 45% chance he will end up with an 18-21 (non-crap hands), a 34% chance he will end up with 17 again, and only a 21% chance of busting. You WANT dealer to stand on all 17's.
EasyRhino
Well-Known Member
Here's the way I view it:
S17 is only important when the dealer has an ace and some combination of cards adding up to six.
About half of the time this happens, you will see the dealer's ace as the upcard. Anytime you see an ace, you're going to be hitting, and risking the chance of busting, and only staying when you get 17-21.
If the dealer were to stop at 17, then you'd be assured of a tie, and have a very good chance of winning. But if the dealer keeps hitting, she's got at least two opportunities to get a hand better than yours.
For the times when the dealer is showing a small card, it doesn't seem to affect things as much. More down to dumb luck.
S17 is only important when the dealer has an ace and some combination of cards adding up to six.
About half of the time this happens, you will see the dealer's ace as the upcard. Anytime you see an ace, you're going to be hitting, and risking the chance of busting, and only staying when you get 17-21.
If the dealer were to stop at 17, then you'd be assured of a tie, and have a very good chance of winning. But if the dealer keeps hitting, she's got at least two opportunities to get a hand better than yours.
For the times when the dealer is showing a small card, it doesn't seem to affect things as much. More down to dumb luck.