Heat at DD

[flyingwind]

I've been having some trouble avoiding heat at the DD pitch games that are dealt face down. Any advice anyone can offer? Thanks.

 

[bj bob]

Need More Info

I've been having some trouble avoiding heat at the DD pitch games that are dealt face down. Any advice anyone can offer? Thanks.

What's the table min/max? What's your spread and how many players at the table? If we know more particulars, then we may be able come up with some advice.

 

[paddywhack]

May not be many ways around it

I've been having some trouble avoiding heat at the DD pitch games that are dealt face down. Any advice anyone can offer? Thanks.

Most places sweat their DD games. It's much easier to spot a counter and the TC swings can make betting jumps way too obvious.

If they are sweating a lot you may have to lower the spread. Decent games with decent rules and pen can easily be beaten with a 1-3 or 1-4 spread. But you may have to up your min in order to get a max bet and an ev that you can live with.

Short sessions unrated, I mean really short, would be optimal. But still won't stop the heat if they've got sharp floor or surveillence.

 

[Dyepaintball12]

Always wong in if they allow mid-shoe entry.

Let's say you plan to spread $25 to $300. Well instead of coming in at $25, wait and wong in at $100. This makes it appear like you are only spreading 1-3 instead of 1-12. PLUS you will get more comps this way.

 

[Blue Efficacy]

Too bad wonging is rarely allowed at DD, and what do you do when the shuffle comes, which it will quickly? Just leave that table and come back when it's positive again? Drop down to 25 which will reintroduce the large spread? Not trying to be critical here, just seeking answers.

 

[creeping panther]

Dd

Paddy is right on as usual,,,,, being the bad ass player he really is

Get a stupid act, cheer on the table, don't handle the cards like a pro and don't shuffle those chips. :grin:

CP

 

[zengrifter]

Decent [2D] games with decent rules and pen can easily be beaten with a 1-3 or 1-4 spread.

Strongly disagree. zg

 

[metronome]

Paddy is right on as usual,,,,, being the bad ass player he really is

Get a stupid act, cheer on the table, don't handle the cards like a pro and don't shuffle those chips. :grin:

CP

Silly Question CP, but why "don't shuffle" those chips.

 

[creeping panther]

Metro

Silly Question CP, but why "don't shuffle" those chips.

It can be taken as a dead give away of an experienced player,,,I always notice when a player does that on my table so I pay special attention to their play until I make a conclusion as to skillz level.

CP

 

[Dyepaintball12]

I agree with CP - I have read shuffling chips is an easy giveaway of an experienced player.

By coming in hot off right when you sit down, it looks a lot more normal going up to $300 than coming in and playing $25 and then jumping to $300.

You can go back down to $25 by saying "I always start low at the bottom of the shoe" or even just start with $50 on the first hand. It is -EV but it will buy you cover

 

[bigplayer]

I've been having some trouble avoiding heat at the DD pitch games that are dealt face down. Any advice anyone can offer? Thanks.

Yes, play shoes and you'll win more money with less heat in the long run. Getting a bigger edge at double deck is usually never actually realized because the game is often slower, the rules are worse, you have to use a smaller spread and more cover, and you get backed off a lot. The exception would be a double deck game dealt almost to the bottom at a casino that normally gets a lot of big action.

Food for Thought. Most people who were put into the casino bad guy databases for the first time had it happen to them while they were playing double deck. If you play shoes at medium stakes you will almost never be put into a national database whereas many green chippers were put into Griffin, biometrica, and other databases because of playing double deck.

 

[kewljason]

Yes, play shoes and you'll win more money with less heat in the long run. Getting a bigger edge at double deck is usually never actually realized because the game is often slower, the rules are worse, you have to use a smaller spread and more cover, and you get backed off a lot. The exception would be a double deck game dealt almost to the bottom at a casino that normally gets a lot of big action.

Food for Thought. Most people who were put into the casino bad guy databases for the first time had it happen to them while they were playing double deck. If you play shoes at medium stakes you will almost never be put into a national database whereas many green chippers were put into Griffin, biometrica, and other databases because of playing double deck.

Great insight BP. When I relocated to vegas last year, I was so excited about the opportunites I would have playing the 'better double deck games' than the shoe games I had been mostly playing. Now 1 year later, I find myself once again playing mostly shoe games. I try to mix it up some, but the fact is most places are a little too paranoid about their double deck games. I can play a six deck game and spread 1-16 green and receive little heat, where as the same house sweats a 1-4 spread at the double deck game.

 

[Dyepaintball12]

Great insight BP. When I relocated to vegas last year, I was so excited about the opportunites I would have playing the 'better double deck games' than the shoe games I had been mostly playing. Now 1 year later, I find myself once again playing mostly shoe games. I try to mix it up some, but the fact is most places are a little too paranoid about their double deck games. I can play a six deck game and spread 1-16 green and receive little heat, where as the same house sweats a 1-4 spread at the double deck game.

x2

 

[flyingwind]

Thanks for all the responses. It'll take me a bit of time to reflect on the details. I've been playing way too many games and places the last few days to remember all the details. I spread betw 1-2 and 1-5 depending on the place. Table min/max varied from 5/500 to 25/5000. I was playing all levels for the experience. Mid shoe entry was not allowed at almost all games. DD games are soooo slow! It drives me nuts. I played too long at some places. I figured that losing and not getting any heat made it ok to play longer, but clearly not the case. On the other hand, I could not stand playing short sessions. It meant taking the time to go find another place, though in retrospect that's probably a better route than getting the heat. It's a different set of discipline that I have to acquire. I'm really tired, so the exhaustion is probably affecting judgement, too. I've never felt this much heat before, and I'm looking at part of this as a good learning experience. I'd rather not learn any more of this first hand though, and I'm going to stay under the radar. I appreciate everyone's little different pieces of advice.

 

[21forme]

If you find DD too slow, it probably means you are playing at a table with at least 3-4 others. Spreading at a game like that 1-2 or even 1-4 is a losing proposition - not enough rounds being dealt.

The only Strip DD game with MSE I'm aware of is at MB. You can wong in once or twice, but that's about it. Just because you're losing, doesn't mean they aren't watching you and will tolerate further play. Time your exit by the number of min to max bet spreads you make. After 2 or 3, get out of there, regardless of a win or loss.

If you want to play good fast DD games, go to the place with the dancing fountains. Min will be $50 during the day. If mins are $100, ask and they'll probably let you play $50. Spread 1-8 and play a very short session, spreading to max once, maybe twice, if you don't intend to go back there later in your trip. Otherwise, stick to the shoe games.

LV isn't the AP heaven you thought it would be, is it? That's why I posted the "Vegas sucks" thread a few weeks ago, when I returned from my last trip.

 

[moo321]

If you find DD too slow, it probably means you are playing at a table with at least 3-4 others. Spreading at a game like that 1-2 or even 1-4 is a losing proposition - not enough rounds being dealt.

The only Strip DD game with MSE I'm aware of is at MB. You can wong in once or twice, but that's about it. Just because you're losing, doesn't mean they aren't watching you and will tolerate further play. Time your exit by the number of min to max bet spreads you make. After 2 or 3, get out of there, regardless of a win or loss.

If you want to play good fast DD games, go to the place with the dancing fountains. Min will be $50 during the day. If mins are $100, ask and they'll probably let you play $50. Spread 1-8 and play a very short session, spreading to max once, maybe twice, if you don't intend to go back there later in your trip. Otherwise, stick to the shoe games.

LV isn't the AP heaven you thought it would be, is it? That's why I posted the "Vegas sucks" thread a few weeks ago, when I returned from my last trip.

There's a few other places that allow mid shoe.

 

[ihate17]

There is no sure fire way to beat casino paranoia for long

If the casino is paranoid about counters at their double deck games (and most appear to be) a great act might only result in it taking longer to back you off and a small spread probably has you playing a losing game anyway.

The only method that has worked for me and kept good double deck games available to me for years has been playing short sessions unrated.

I know being unrated will get me evaluated quickly but if I leave after the second time I have a shuffle where I put out big bets, I will leave before their evaluation has shown me to be a counter and if they review things later they have no name on me.

Generally, the aim is for no more than 45 minutes but circumstances can make that time period much shorter. If starting every new shuffle and getting constant minus counts and wonging out at certain points, the first big count will generally be my last. My thinking goes like this: Why was this guy flat betting for X shuffles and then suddenly he is betting big. So they are now reviewing that shuffle.
On the other hand, I sit down and get a big count right away, they may think I just play big often, so I will wait for one more big count or 45 minutes before making my exit.

Playing unrated for a short session is more understandable to a pit than playing unrated for long sessions also.

 

[Jack_Black]

This is second hand info, but still not too bad.

I was talking to a bartender yesterday about how good I am at blackjack. Then he asked if I play DD games. He told me to watch out because he talked to a guy yesterday who worked in casino surveillance, and all he did was watch the DD game for his entire shift.

that's all the info I got. He didn't ask what casino, or which shift. too bad.

 

[bj bob]

Most places sweat their DD games. It's much easier to spot a counter and the TC swings can make betting jumps way too obvious.

Not at the joints I hang around at. They hawk the SD and pretty much leave the DD's alone.

If they are sweating a lot you may have to lower the spread. Decent games with decent rules and pen can easily be beaten with a 1-3 or 1-4 spread.

I gotta agree with Zg here. Unless you walk into a sweet S-17 DD game with LS, a 1:3/4 spread will only having you treading water.

Short sessions unrated, I mean really short, would be optimal. But still won't stop the heat if they've got sharp floor or surveillance.

No quibbles with that wisdom.

 

[creeping panther]

Not at the joints I hang around at. They hawk the SD and pretty much leave the DD's alone.


I gotta agree with Zg here. Unless you walk into a sweet S-17 DD game with LS, a 1:3/4 spread will only having you treading water.


No quibbles with that wisdom.

Well I do play s-17 dd with LS and I must say done properly you can do very well with a 1-3 or 1-4 as Paddy says,,,the key here is done properly, of this I have no doubt.

CP