"Hey, I bet you can't get tossed for counting cards"

[Kaiser]

So I think I'll have a little bet going next month when I'm in Las Vegas. I'm the paranoid type who is always talking about getting heat, etc, but a buddy of mine thinks I'm full of it. We're talking about different ways of getting heat and how pit bosses handle certain things, and we wind up with a challenge. Get backed off for counting cards in front of everyone.

I'm going for a stag and there will be quite a few of us there. Not sure how many gambling together, but there will be plenty of chance for lots of witnesses. I won't have much of a bankroll to work with, maybe $500-600 that I'll scrape together and consider my "entertainment" funds for the tables. I won't really be in a position to bet properly with the count. I have no idea what the ROR for a $5 to $50 spread backed by a $500 backroll is, but I'm guessing it's, uh, high. My plan for the 3 days is just to play basic strategy, max out the free drinks, have a ton of fun, and keep the count for insurance purposes.

Anyway, to my task of being backed off. I think it might be fun to have a few drinks and put a little show on for everyone, just for kicks. Maybe mouth the count at first, and get a little more vocal as the shoe goes on. Tell a buddy "dude, bet another $10, it's at like 23" (I use KISS III)

If it goes on for a while and I'm not getting heat, maybe I'll count on my fingers as he's dealing the cards out. Maybe I'll ask someone how many decks of cards they think is in the discard tray, then ask someone "hey man, do you know what 12 divided by 3.5 is?"

If I can get my friend to bet me $50 or so it might just be a good EV move on my part. I don't see myself going back there for a looong time.

Anyone have any pointers, or any funny back-off stories of their own?

 

[EasyRhino]

Hmm, an escalating series of obviousness to find out where they finally throw out a $50 better?

Best shot, by reputation, would be El Cortez. Single deck game. Reduce a few bets after a win, and always reduce bets after a shuffle. I bet that would get you backed off even if you weren't doing it in correlation with the count.

I might recommend Slots-a-fun, as $50 is a big bet there. But if they start preferentially shuffling, then it's not obvious for your buddies. Now, if you started explaining to your buddies how they were preferentially shuffling, at the table, that might be fun.

Now, rolling with a $50 max bet at one of the major strip properties would be fun. It really would be fun to see just what it would take for them to toss you. Probably advising the entire table on what to bet.

 

[Sonny]

Best shot, by reputation, would be El Cortez.

Damn right!

Walk up to a SD table with your friends. Buy in for $300 and watch the pit boss run over. Sit out the first hand while your friends play. If a lot of small cards come out, say “Alright! Everybody bet big.” and make a $50 bet. You and your friends will immediately be escorted out before the second round.

-Sonny-

 

[Mimosine]

Probably advising the entire table on what to bet.

i'd love to tell an entire table that "now's finally the time to take isurance, the count indicates that you are a 1:1 favorite on a 2:1 payout, all in!!!"

side note:
i've won 3 of 4 insurance bets in high count, when the entire table didn't pony up money, and in each case i insured something like a 14 or 16. so far my all time favorite and most dangerous play!

side note 2:
make sure to fully document the endeavor and report back to us! preferably with secret video and audio.....

 

[Kaiser]

Damn right!

Walk up to a SD table with your friends. Buy in for $300 and watch the pit boss run over. Sit out the first hand while your friends play. If a lot of small cards come out, say “Alright! Everybody bet big.” and make a $50 bet. You and your friends will immediately be escorted out before the second round.

-Sonny-

That sounds great! :grin:

Actually one of the things I was going to do was to buy in for about 2 or 3 grand somewhere (not that I'd actually gamble with all that money) and then start betting $5 a hand, or sitting out rounds like you said.

It could be fun! :laugh:

 

[NDN21]

"Hey, I bet you can't get.....

If you are losing would the casino throw you out even if they know you are counting?

I have heard several people proclaim that they are counting but the casino let them play because that "counter" just wasn't any good at counting at all.

Any fool could come up to a table and proclaim he is a counter. Does a casino have to see some display of counting skills, not just big talk, to back you off?

 

[RikaKazak]

If you are losing would the casino throw you out even if they know you are counting?

I have heard several people proclaim that they are counting but the casino let them play because that "counter" just wasn't any good at counting at all.

Any fool could come up to a table and proclaim he is a counter. Does a casino have to see some display of counting skills, not just big talk, to back you off?

It's up to them...it's their discression

usually people who say they can count, can't

also I think it's a factor of being +EV vs. -EV...if they think you're +EV you get the boot, if they think you're -EV, play all you like.

 

[EasyRhino]

A smart casino will back someone off if they are playing with a legitimate edge, regardless of how their act, and regardless of how they are doing at the time.

Same casino will let a player without an edge play on. Again, without regard to the act, or win/loss.

So far, I'm 2/2 on my adverse action being during losing sessions.

Now, that being said, if the pit critter can't actually tell if you're counting or not, you may convince them that you are by some other factor than your actual play, and get tossed.

That's why, if you embark on this plan, I recommend you play, act, and bet contrary to the count, as the ultimate experiment. If they don't back you off, then switch to playing with the count, but still act the same.

... actually, this is sounding more and more fun.

 

[jimbiggs]

If you really want to impress them. Try to set a record for fastest backoff in history. My first time at the Western, I got flat bet after 20 minutes spreading $10-$50. I was dumb. It was like 7 a.m. on a weekday and I think I was the only customer in the casino. The pit boss had nothing else to do, but watch me count cards.

 

[DocSkyHawk]

I am a casino Surveillance agent and deal with these things almost everyday. Chances of getting tossed for counting when betting low amounts like that are pretty low. We have known card counters that come in and play the $3-$10 tables but never bet over $50 a hand. One player is known by name and sits down with a manual counter in his hand. Its more funny to watch him counting in front of everyone and betting such low amounts then to have him leave. We have non counters that come in and clean us out for $5k+ five days a week. We run them down every few days but they never come back more then 30% to the count.

 

[Arctapodema]

hmmm... a casino surveillance agent huh? maybe you could give us a little insight then. Ive always been curious as to how well you guys are trained...and paid. Do they teach you to count?

 

[DocSkyHawk]

I can only talk about a few things but we are trained on everything. Counting is one of the first things that we cover as well as basic strategy. Most of us are able to watch tables and tell you what the running count is. This is useful to see if someone is counting without getting into a full "rundown". In a full rundown we use spreadsheets and enter everything that happens on a table. It in turn gives us a percentage of the player. The pit bosses use the reports to 86 the player or put them on a limited betting rule. Overall unless you are up a large amount or betting high action a rundown won't happen. My advice is to keep your bets under $100 and know when to quit. I often see non-counters up $15000 and loose it all because they keep betting large amounts each hand. This is a bad idea even if you do count. :cool2:

 

[halcyon1234]

If you're going to keep raising the stakes, then might I suggest some of the following, in no particular order:

1) Have a basic strat card
2) Have a basic strat card with wizardofodds.com on it
3) Have a basic strat card with blackjackinfo.com on it
4) Have a basic strat card with blackjackinfo.com: Your Card Counting Forum on it.
5) Have an Illustrious 18 & Fab 4 card on the table
6) Instead, have a chart with every index play on it on the table
7) Instead, have a famous, well known card counting book with every index play in it on the table
8) Bring an umprie's clicker, and keep track of the count with it.
9) As above, but announce "+1, -1"
10) As above, but also announce the running count.
11) As above, but use an abacus instead.
12) Bring with a slide rule to calculate the true count. (I'd say calculator, but electronic devices aren't allowed.)
13) In between deals, ask the dealer to "remember the number 9" (or whatever the RC is at the moment), just in case you forget.
14) As above, but ask the pit.
15) As above, but ask the pit to "remember that the count is 9"
16) Wong without leaving the table by not putting out bets during negative counts
17) As above, but tell the dealer "the shoe's bad"
18) As above, but tell the dealer "The count's bad" instead
19) As above, but give the exact house edge for that count (pulling out wizardofodd.com printouts as needed)
20) When you are wonged in, announce your bets in terms of units, not dollars. (Bonus points if you mention that you are "spreading" to X units)
21) Wear a blackjackinfo.com tee-shirt.
22) As above, but with the phrase "I'm card counting right now" on it.
23) As above, but be sure to tell anyone who asks exacly how much blackjack you need to play to get the EV needed to recoup the cost of that shirt.
24) Start taking prop bets from other players on how long it will take you to get backed off.
25) As above, but include the dealer by offering her a tip.
26) As above, but include the pit.
27) As above, but include the eye in the sky by holding up a sign spelling out exactly what you are doing, and what odds you will give on an over/under.

I'm almost willing to start a pool to see how many of the above you can pull off before getting tossed! =)

 

[EasyRhino]

We have non counters that come in and clean us out for $5k+ five days a week. We run them down every few days but they never come back more then 30% to the count.

The rundown is the thing with the fancy spreadsheet, right?

What does a 30% mean?

Also, I'm guessing you don't work at a place you would consider a grind joint? The one flagrant counter sounds kind of hilarious. I wonder how much attention he gets from other players. What is the "manual counter", like an umpire clicker?

 

[bluewhale]

If you're going to keep raising the stakes, then might I suggest some of the following, in no particular order:

1) Have a basic strat card
2) Have a basic strat card with wizardofodds.com on it
3) Have a basic strat card with blackjackinfo.com on it
4) Have a basic strat card with blackjackinfo.com: Your Card Counting Forum on it.
5) Have an Illustrious 18 & Fab 4 card on the table
6) Instead, have a chart with every index play on it on the table
7) Instead, have a famous, well known card counting book with every index play in it on the table
8) Bring an umprie's clicker, and keep track of the count with it.
9) As above, but announce "+1, -1"
10) As above, but also announce the running count.
11) As above, but use an abacus instead.
12) Bring with a slide rule to calculate the true count. (I'd say calculator, but electronic devices aren't allowed.)
13) In between deals, ask the dealer to "remember the number 9" (or whatever the RC is at the moment), just in case you forget.
14) As above, but ask the pit.
15) As above, but ask the pit to "remember that the count is 9"
16) Wong without leaving the table by not putting out bets during negative counts
17) As above, but tell the dealer "the shoe's bad"
18) As above, but tell the dealer "The count's bad" instead
19) As above, but give the exact house edge for that count (pulling out wizardofodd.com printouts as needed)
20) When you are wonged in, announce your bets in terms of units, not dollars. (Bonus points if you mention that you are "spreading" to X units)
21) Wear a blackjackinfo.com tee-shirt.
22) As above, but with the phrase "I'm card counting right now" on it.
23) As above, but be sure to tell anyone who asks exacly how much blackjack you need to play to get the EV needed to recoup the cost of that shirt.
24) Start taking prop bets from other players on how long it will take you to get backed off.
25) As above, but include the dealer by offering her a tip.
26) As above, but include the pit.
27) As above, but include the eye in the sky by holding up a sign spelling out exactly what you are doing, and what odds you will give on an over/under.

I'm almost willing to start a pool to see how many of the above you can pull off before getting tossed! =)

although i doubt they'll do it, but i'm pretty sure you can be charged for doing some of this stuff

 

[DocSkyHawk]

The rundown is the thing with the fancy spreadsheet, right?

What does a 30% mean?

Also, I'm guessing you don't work at a place you would consider a grind joint? The one flagrant counter sounds kind of hilarious. I wonder how much attention he gets from other players. What is the "manual counter", like an umpire clicker?

Yes the rundown is when we use spreadsheets. After we enter all of their bets along with all of the cards/count we get a percentage on how many times they correctly varied their bets with the count. It is okay to change bets at any time without getting attention. As long as it isn't matching the count. Again, this is only a major deal if you are getting "rundown". But unless you are getting big and winning several thousand a session, pit management doesn't seem to care if you count. For every counter making $500 there are 1,000 "bad players" loosing their bankroll. Even card counters loose.

The known card counter we have uses a deck of cheap playing cards in his hand. He slides them from one side to the other with the count. Pretty funny to watch.

 

[EasyRhino]

Is the micro-stakes counter accurate? If other regulars caught on, they might start following his lead.

Which might make things even funnier.

 

[sabre]

Try bringing one of those baccarat scoresheets to the BJ table. When they ask what you're doing, tell them you're going to keep track of the cards coming out of the shoe.

When they say that thet you can't do that, ask why. Act really surprised. Keep asking why you are allowed to track the cards at the baccarat table, but not at the BJ table. Say "But I don't understand ...." a lot. Do this at a table full of ploppies. Solicit their opinion on the matter.

Then ask if you can keep track of the cards with your fingers.

You might get tossed before placing one bet.

 

[suicyco maniac]

If you are losing would the casino throw you out even if they know you are counting?

Yes!! I was trespassed and escorted off property by about a dozen people at a casino where my lifetime losses were close to 50K. On the day I was trespassed I was down about 5K. I have known other players who were tossed with 100K losses to other casinos.

 

[zengrifter]

i'd love to tell an entire table that "now's finally the time to take isurance, the count indicates that you are a 1:1 favorite on a 2:1 payout, all in!!!"

I had a whole table betting Royal20s sidebet (similar to Lladies). When I would give the signal one of them would imitate cavalry trumpet and the others would shout CHARGE and bet. This went on for nearly an hour before the pit told us "no sidebets." zg