Hi Lo
- Thread starter RyanF
- Start date
Try this site for starters.
http://www.gamemasteronline.com/indexa.shtml?GameMasters/GameMasterClassicsIndex.shtml (Archive copy)
http://www.gamemasteronline.com/indexa.shtml?GameMasters/GameMasterClassicsIndex.shtml (Archive copy)
no no forget that. Go here:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/store/
Professional Blackjack is pretty good.
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/store/
Professional Blackjack is pretty good.
sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
best resource for Hi/Lo? .......... here i am :1st: ...... snicker ......just joking...RyanF said:
i really, really like the Hi/Lo system myself. personally i prefer it over the Hi/Lo lite.
you are wise to ask about the differances. it is very important to not confuse the various
properties of the different counting systems and methodolgies involved when you are doing your
reading and research.
there are so many great sources with regard to Hi/Lo that i don't no where to begin.
i'll go with Jeff25 that gamemaster online is a great one. Professional Blackjack by Wong is a good resource.
let me attempt to give you a few 'off the cuff' pointers regarding Hi/Lo .
first off as with any counting system you need to be able to use basic strategy as if it were
second nature. never vary from basic strategy unless you are using basic strategy index
departures (example illustrious 18 & fab 4). basic strategy and the index departures will give
you the lowest loss rate that you can achieve in the long run.
understand the nature of blackjack. the game is so constructed that even if you play perfect
basic strategy the dealer has the edge. this means in the long run you will lose money. the way
it will happen is you will win some lose some. it can be decieving in that sometimes you will do
very well but again in the long run the dealer shall prevail. the fact that such win/loss swings
are a fact of life in blackjack holds the key to how it is that one can win money with any viable
counting system. it is a fact that any blackjack player using basic strategy shall experience the
most winning hands when the pack left to be dealt is richer in aces & faces than the small cards
(ie. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6). when the remaining pack to be dealt is richer in high value cards to low
value cards the player will have more blackjacks, more successful double down, more succesful
splits and relatively more winning hands (since the dealer will bust more often or maybe end up
with a lower total pat hand) than when the remaining pack to be dealt has a higher ratio of low
value cards to high value cards. the aces & faces (10's) are the high (Hi) cards, the small cards
(ie. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ) are the low (Lo) cards. the remaining cards (7, 8, 9) are neutral. they do
not have as much affect on the player or dealers prospects. key to winning money here is raising
ones bets when the pack remaining to be dealt has a higher ratio of Hi cards to Lo cards and
lowering ones bet (or not betting at all) when the ratio of Lo cards to Hi cards is greater. the
relative advantage one can realize when considering the ratio of Hi cards to Lo cards can even be quantified (through computer simulations). since we can quantify our advantage according to the degree of richness of the ratio of Hi cards to Lo cards we can determine the optimal bet we
should make according to that degree of richness. additionally we can employ Kelly betting
considerations with respect to our bankroll and desired level of risk in order to maintain a
desired level of risk of ruin and proper optimal betting. thats another topic altogether that
needs to be considered aside from learning about the Hi/Lo counting system.
below is how to employ the Hi/Lo counting system in a nutshell.
the Hi/Lo card (weighted) values are as below:
aces, tens, jacks, queens, Kings = +1 these are the Hi cards
7, 8, 9 = 0 these are the neutral cards
2, 3, 4, 5, 6 = -1 these are the Lo cards
notice that if you went through a single deck and added the (weighted) value of each card as you went through the complete deck that the eventual total is zero. there is an equal number of Hi cards to Lo cards. there are forty Hi cards and forty Lo cards and twelve neutral cards in a
single deck.
so now you can see that during a blackjack game that you can observe the cards as they are being dealt and count the weighted value of each card as it is dealt. when you do that you are keeping a running count what is known as the RC . you just add the weighted value of each seen card to get the RC. so in a single deck blackjack game if we know the RC at any given time then we know if the remaining pack to be dealt is higher or lower in Hi cards to Lo cards. this gives us an idea of our advantage or disadvantage at any particular time. if the RC for a single deck game is positive then we know there are more Hi cards left to be dealt than there are Lo cards left to be dealt. this means we have some advantage. additionally the higher a positive number the RC gets too means the higher our advantage is. conversly the more negative the RC becomes the greater our disadvantage becomes.
now we come to the question of employing this information for multiple decks and the new concept of true count also known as TC. for a single deck blackjack game the RC is a pretty good barometer of our advantage but not so with multiple decks. example a six deck game has a total of three hundred and twelve cards so obviously an RC = 6 (let us say) is significant for a single deck game but not so significant for a six deck game. if we had the incidence of having an RC = 6 for a six deck game for which less than a whole deck has been dealt we just know that we have six extra Hi cards for that remaining large pack of cards to be dealt. but with the single deck game and the RC = 6 we know we have six extra Hi cards in a single deck or less which is a significant advantage. the solution to obtain comparative knowledge about our advantage in multiple deck games is to divide the RC by the number of decks remaining to be dealt. that is how we obtain our true count for multiple decks. TC = RC/#decks remaining . so what our true count tells us is on average how many extra Hi or Lo cards per deck we have in the pack that is left to be dealt.
now let me give some approximate advantage values with respect to a given true count.
TC = -5 circa -3.0% advantage
TC = -4 circa -2.5% advantage
TC = -3 circa -2.0% advantage
TC = -2 circa -1.5% advantage
TC = -1 circa -1.0% advantage
TC = 0 circa -0.5% advantage
TC = 1 circa 0.0% advantage
TC = 2 circa 0.5% advantage
TC = 3 circa 1.0% advantage
TC = 4 circa 1.5% advantage
TC = 5 circa 2.0% advantage
note: these are not precise numbers. what we do to get precise values is run simulations of the
given game we want to play which will crank out more precise advantage values for a given true
count.
now having a knowledge of the expected advantage at various true counts we can intelligently
decide how we want to raise or lower our bets. we can set up a bet ramp that is appropriate for
our overall bankroll in such a way that our risk of ruin (ROR) is as low as possible compared to
the level of return we want to achieve.
an example of how we might set our bet ramp is below:
TC = -5 circa -3.0% advantage 0 units wong out
TC = -4 circa -2.5% advantage 0 units wong out
TC = -3 circa -2.0% advantage 0 units wong out
TC = -2 circa -1.5% advantage 0 units wong out
TC = -1 circa -1.0% advantage 1 unit if less than two decks dealt else 0 units wong out
TC = 0 circa -0.5% advantage 1 unit if less than two decks dealt else 0 units wong out
TC = 1 circa 0.0% advantage 1 unit
TC = 2 circa 0.5% advantage 2 units
TC = 3 circa 1.0% advantage 4 units
TC = 4 circa 1.5% advantage 6 units
TC >= 5 circa 2.0% advantage 8 or 2x6 units
this is a rather conservative bet spread. a greater bet spread is advisable.
thats a bit of what the Hi/Lo count is about in a nutshell. hope this helps.
best regards,
mr fr0g
Last edited:
Thanks for that informative post.
When you do true count conversions do you do exact, round, or truncate?
Also do you do convert by full, half, or quarter deck?
I guess basically I would just like a better understanding of how true count conversions are actually done.
When you do true count conversions do you do exact, round, or truncate?
Also do you do convert by full, half, or quarter deck?
I guess basically I would just like a better understanding of how true count conversions are actually done.
Last edited:
Remember the more precise you can be the stronger your game will be. On the same note, if you're making mistakes trying to calculate to the quarter, which should be your goal, than convert halves. Anything less precise than that you'd be weakening your game to what I would deem an unacceptable level. Converting the true count by quarter decks isn't real hard it just takes some practice. There are a few math tricks that help speed up just about any conversion. An example would be if you wanted to find the true count with 3 1/4 decks left, just multiply the running count by .3 that will get you within a very acceptable range of the true count. Another easy one would be for 2 1/2 decks left just multiply the running count by .4 Just practicing a lot you will start seeing mathematical shortcuts that are accurate and quick. Again it just takes practice, and remember the math won't mean a thing if your deck estimation is off, so be patient and practice. Good Luck.RyanF said:
sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
interesting. i just go by full decks and i floor or round down my results. as i understand it the advantage 'gradient' between integral true counts is not linear. the implication being that it would be difficult to come up with optimal bets for fractional true count results.Bojack1 said:
i suppose the best option for getting a more 'lazer' count would be Wong's Halves count.
best regards,
mr fr0g
Last edited:
that is a comprahensive post frog,i like it.sagefr0g said:best resource for Hi/Lo? .......... here i am :1st: ...... snicker ......just joking...
i really, really like the Hi/Lo system myself. personally i prefer it over the Hi/Lo lite.
you are wise to ask about the differances. it is very important to not confuse the various
properties of the different counting systems and methodolgies involved when you are doing your
reading and research.
there are so many great sources with regard to Hi/Lo that i don't no where to begin.
i'll go with Jeff25 that gamemaster online is a great one. Professional Blackjack by Wong is a good resource.
let me attempt to give you a few 'off the cuff' pointers regarding Hi/Lo .
first off as with any counting system you need to be able to use basic strategy as if it were
second nature. never vary from basic strategy unless you are using basic strategy index
departures (example illustrious 18 & fab 4). basic strategy and the index departures will give
you the lowest loss rate that you can achieve in the long run.
understand the nature of blackjack. the game is so constructed that even if you play perfect
basic strategy the dealer has the edge. this means in the long run you will lose money. the way
it will happen is you will win some lose some. it can be decieving in that sometimes you will do
very well but again in the long run the dealer shall prevail. the fact that such win/loss swings
are a fact of life in blackjack holds the key to how it is that one can win money with any viable
counting system. it is a fact that any blackjack player using basic strategy shall experience the
most winning hands when the pack left to be dealt is richer in aces & faces than the small cards
(ie. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6). when the remaining pack to be dealt is richer in high value cards to low
value cards the player will have more blackjacks, more successful double down, more succesful
splits and relatively more winning hands (since the dealer will bust more often or maybe end up
with a lower total pat hand) than when the remaining pack to be dealt has a higher ratio of low
value cards to high value cards. the aces & faces (10's) are the high (Hi) cards, the small cards
(ie. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ) are the low (Lo) cards. the remaining cards (7, 8, 9) are neutral. they do
not have as much affect on the player or dealers prospects. key to winning money here is raising
ones bets when the pack remaining to be dealt has a higher ratio of Hi cards to Lo cards and
lowering ones bet (or not betting at all) when the ratio of Lo cards to Hi cards is greater. the
relative advantage one can realize when considering the ratio of Hi cards to Lo cards can even be quantified (through computer simulations). since we can quantify our advantage according to the degree of richness of the ratio of Hi cards to Lo cards we can determine the optimal bet we
should make according to that degree of richness. additionally we can employ Kelly betting
considerations with respect to our bankroll and desired level of risk in order to maintain a
desired level of risk of ruin and proper optimal betting. thats another topic altogether that
needs to be considered aside from learning about the Hi/Lo counting system.
below is how to employ the Hi/Lo counting system in a nutshell.
the Hi/Lo card (weighted) values are as below:
aces, tens, jacks, queens, Kings = +1 these are the Hi cards
7, 8, 9 = 0 these are the neutral cards
2, 3, 4, 5, 6 = -1 these are the Lo cards
notice that if you went through a single deck and added the (weighted) value of each card as you went through the complete deck that the eventual total is zero. there is an equal number of Hi cards to Lo cards. there are forty Hi cards and forty Lo cards and twelve neutral cards in a
single deck.
so now you can see that during a blackjack game that you can observe the cards as they are being dealt and count the weighted value of each card as it is dealt. when you do that you are keeping a running count what is known as the RC . you just add the weighted value of each seen card to get the RC. so in a single deck blackjack game if we know the RC at any given time then we know if the remaining pack to be dealt is higher or lower in Hi cards to Lo cards. this gives us an idea of our advantage or disadvantage at any particular time. if the RC for a single deck game is positive then we know there are more Hi cards left to be dealt than there are Lo cards left to be dealt. this means we have some advantage. additionally the higher a positive number the RC gets too means the higher our advantage is. conversly the more negative the RC becomes the greater our disadvantage becomes.
now we come to the question of employing this information for multiple decks and the new concept of true count also known as TC. for a single deck blackjack game the RC is a pretty good barometer of our advantage but not so with multiple decks. example a six deck game has a total of three hundred and twelve cards so obviously an RC = 6 (let us say) is significant for a single deck game but not so significant for a six deck game. if we had the incidence of having an RC = 6 for a six deck game for which less than a whole deck has been dealt we just know that we have six extra Hi cards for that remaining large pack of cards to be dealt. but with the single deck game and the RC = 6 we know we have six extra Hi cards in a single deck or less which is a significant advantage. the solution to obtain comparative knowledge about our advantage in multiple deck games is to divide the RC by the number of decks remaining to be dealt. that is how we obtain our true count for multiple decks. TC = RC/#decks remaining . so what our true count tells us is on average how many extra Hi or Lo cards per deck we have in the pack that is left to be dealt.
now let me give some approximate advantage values with respect to a given true count.
TC = -5 circa -3.0% advantage
TC = -4 circa -2.5% advantage
TC = -3 circa -2.0% advantage
TC = -2 circa -1.5% advantage
TC = -1 circa -1.0% advantage
TC = 0 circa -0.5% advantage
TC = 1 circa 0.0% advantage
TC = 2 circa 0.5% advantage
TC = 3 circa 1.0% advantage
TC = 4 circa 1.5% advantage
TC = 5 circa 2.0% advantage
note: these are not precise numbers. what we do to get precise values is run simulations of the
given game we want to play which will crank out more precise advantage values for a given true
count.
now having a knowledge of the expected advantage at various true counts we can intelligently
decide how we want to raise or lower our bets. we can set up a bet ramp that is appropriate for
our overall bankroll in such a way that our risk of ruin (ROR) is as low as possible compared to
the level of return we want to achieve.
an example of how we might set our bet ramp is below:
TC = -5 circa -3.0% advantage 0 units wong out
TC = -4 circa -2.5% advantage 0 units wong out
TC = -3 circa -2.0% advantage 0 units wong out
TC = -2 circa -1.5% advantage 0 units wong out
TC = -1 circa -1.0% advantage 1 unit if less than two decks dealt else 0 units wong out
TC = 0 circa -0.5% advantage 1 unit if less than two decks dealt else 0 units wong out
TC = 1 circa 0.0% advantage 1 unit
TC = 2 circa 0.5% advantage 2 units
TC = 3 circa 1.0% advantage 4 units
TC = 4 circa 1.5% advantage 6 units
TC >= 5 circa 2.0% advantage 8 or 2x6 units
this is a rather conservative bet spread. a greater bet spread is advisable.
thats a bit of what the Hi/Lo count is about in a nutshell. hope this helps.
best regards,
mr fr0g
QFIT
Well-Known Member
Good post sagefrog. But the ramp is much too slow. Forget this .5% per TC, multiply by bankroll nonsense. This methodology was obsoleted long ago and is not optimal. If you use the calculator at http://www.card-counting.com you will see that you should ramp up more quickly. Otherwise, you'll rarely get out a top bet. Given the less than great conditions these days, it is critical to get the money out in the right proportion when you do have an edge.
QFIT
Well-Known Member
When is the last time you saw a TC of +13
Bankroll size should have no effect on WHEN you make your max bet. It should only affect WHAT your max bet is. When you make your max bet depends primarily on your spread. Using HiLo with no backcounting, the max bet is normally placed from TC +4 to +6.
Bankroll size should have no effect on WHEN you make your max bet. It should only affect WHAT your max bet is. When you make your max bet depends primarily on your spread. Using HiLo with no backcounting, the max bet is normally placed from TC +4 to +6.
sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
i been thinking along those lines for quite some time now.QFIT said:
thanks much for the wake up call. i'm going to work on your suggestion. and see if i can come up with a more aggressive ramp.
think i'll raise the spread to 10 units also.
if my bankroll gets chipped away at to bad i can always change back to a more conservative scheme.
best regards,
mr fr0g
QFIT
Well-Known Member
Use the calculator at http://www.card-counting.com/cvcxonlineviewer.htm with password 100. It will provide the actual optimal bets instead of an estimate. They are quite different.mdlbj said:
SilentBob420BMFJ
Banned
he clearly just copy pastedBJLover said:that is a comprahensive post frog,i like it.
It is amazing that 99% of gamblers have no idea what they are doing.SilentBob420BMFJ said:
How many of those do u think believe they know exactly what they r doing all the time?
Knowing everything, as it seems u do, how do such persons ever figure out they don't know everything?
For a silent guy, u sure do spout alot lol.
Hey QFit, I have been using Hi/LO at a 6d game with poor rules but 75-80% pen and been ramping my bets like this.QFIT said:
tc 0=1unit
tc 1=2 units
tc 2=4 units
tc 3=6 units
tc 4=8 units
tc 5=14 units
Just wondering what you think about this bet ramp, any advice would be appreciated. I should also mention there is no heat and I'm playing $5 units with $7000 BR.