How can dealer/player collusion work?

[aslan]

When I first visited Las Vegas in the early 80's, I ran into a dealer I knew from the East coast. Friends of mine later told me that the dealer had a scam going where he would let his friends visiting Vegas win, then split the winnings in their motel room. I have no reason to disbelieve this report, but it has intrigued me ever since how he, as dealer, could pull this off. Back then, I thought he might just signal the player when to hit, but now I know that the dealer doesn't know his own hole card because his peeks only tell whether it is an ace or a brick. So how could he have done it? Paying out more than necessary? Paying on losing hands? What could get by the eye (eits)? Anyone know how a dealer/player collusion might work?

 

[shadroch]

The eye in the sky looks straight down. It can't see how many chips you have out. The dealer can overpay with impunity from the sky. Only the pitboss can catch that. Dealer can pay a losing bet or push it, but that will show up if anyone is actually watching upstairs.
An accomplished card mechanic can also deal seconds to the player of his choice.

 

[ihate17]

Back then things were different

The peaking device was not yet on the scene (if memory serves me correct) so the dealer did need to look at his hole card when he checked for blackjack.

There were also many more pitch games and in these games the dealer can flash the hit card to first base, deal seconds, or purposely let you see his hole card.

There are still ways that both you and the dealer can earn a taxpayer paid, longterm vacation behind bars in the desert.

ihate17

 

[Sonny]

There are dozens of ways the dealer can cheat in order to help the player. Mispaying bets, peeking at cards, selective dealing and playing/replaying unshuffled slugs are usually the easiest to pull off. A clever cheater can find a way to do pretty much anything they want.

-Sonny-

 

[jack.jackson]

Would it be considered cheating if you were to bet 2 Black's w/a Red on top(205$) for awhile against the same dealer, then switching to 1 Black w/a Red on top for(105$) in hopes that the Dealer wouldnt notice and paid you for 205$ a couple times if you won???

 

[johndoe]

Would it be considered cheating if you were to bet 2 Black's w/a Red on top(205$) for awhile against the same dealer, then switching to 1 Black w/a Red on top for(105$) in hopes that the Dealer wouldnt notice and paid you for 205$ a couple times if you won???

Sort of. You might get away with it, but probably not, at least not for long. Seeing a black/red mix on the table is pretty suspicious and would probably be watched carefully.

 

[callipygian]

Would it be considered cheating if you were to bet 2 Black's w/a Red on top(205$) for awhile against the same dealer, then switching to 1 Black w/a Red on top for(105$) in hopes that the Dealer wouldnt notice and paid you for 205$ a couple times if you won???

It wouldn't be cheating, but it wouldn't work either. The heights of the stacks are different.

You'll note that dealers, or at least good dealers, will always stack your chips in a very specific order: highest denomination chips on the bottom, and the lowest denomination chips on top, set askew from the rest of the stack. If you push a rainbow (black-green-red-red-green-red-black-red) into the betting circle, the dealer will rearrange it to (black-black-"skew"-green-green-"skew"-red-red-red-red).

 

[Guynoire]

This show covers cheating dealers a lot. 1st half of the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTJAoUBM1ag&feature=related

 

[aslan]

The peaking device was not yet on the scene (if memory serves me correct) so the dealer did need to look at his hole card when he checked for blackjack.

There were also many more pitch games and in these games the dealer can flash the hit card to first base, deal seconds, or purposely let you see his hole card.

There are still ways that both you and the dealer can earn a taxpayer paid, longterm vacation behind bars in the desert.

ihate17

Me??? lol I think I know what you mean.

 

[bjcount]

It wouldn't be cheating, but it wouldn't work either. The heights of the stacks are different.

You'll note that dealers, or at least good dealers, will always stack your chips in a very specific order: highest denomination chips on the bottom, and the lowest denomination chips on top, set askew from the rest of the stack. If you push a rainbow (black-green-red-red-green-red-black-red) into the betting circle, the dealer will rearrange it to (black-black-"skew"-green-green-"skew"-red-red-red-red).

Here's what I saw:

I had to leave a table Sat..... What I saw happening was so blatant I didn't want to be included with the group if or when the silver bracelets show up...

Guys flat betting $75 & match the dealer at $50+/-. He's winning every hand and green is stacking up.

Dealer yells out $200 match the dealer, the pit looks over, says ok go ahead, but didn't notice it was 4 stacks of FOUR green , he got paid double. Mistakes happen, but next hand he stood on 16, dealer got 20. Guy got paid. Next hand guy pulled 22, dealer broke, guy got paid. I don't know how long this went on before I noticed the matchplay over pay, but I was gone.
BJC

(copied from an earlier post)

 

[aslan]

Would it be considered cheating if you were to bet 2 Black's w/a Red on top(205$) for awhile against the same dealer, then switching to 1 Black w/a Red on top for(105$) in hopes that the Dealer wouldnt notice and paid you for 205$ a couple times if you won???

I doubt it would be successful. However, supposing it was, I do believe I detect an intent to deceive, jj, so in the moral sense it would be cheating considering your intent. However, in the legal world, it's not your fault if the dealer makes a mistake by paying you too much. You are probably free and clear in the legal sense. But your conscience will follow you wherever you go, jj. No sleep for the wicked!!! lol lol :laugh::laugh:

 

[callipygian]

What I saw happening was so blatant I didn't want to be included with the group

Exactly my opinion. Scenario A is that cheating dealer decides to cheat you in order to cover payouts to his cheating buddy at the table. Scenario B is that cheating dealer pays you out too and then the cops think you're all related.

 

[aslan]

This show covers cheating dealers a lot. 1st half of the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTJAoUBM1ag&feature=related

Good vid. Parts 2 and 3 were good, too.

 

[ccl]

our surveillance system where i worked usually was a little offset from the table taking pics at a slight angle so they could see a "dirty" stack where the chips weren't in denominational order. they could pick out a green chip in a stack of reds and so on. The most common cheating attempt we saw was someone playing 3 greens with a red on top, then dropping their bet to 4 red and the dealers at times would pay them still with 3 greens and a red instead of the 4 red.

chris

 

[aslan]

our surveillance system where i worked usually was a little offset from the table taking pics at a slight angle so they could see a "dirty" stack where the chips weren't in denominational order. they could pick out a green chip in a stack of reds and so on. The most common cheating attempt we saw was someone playing 3 greens with a red on top, then dropping their bet to 4 red and the dealers at times would pay them still with 3 greens and a red instead of the 4 red.

chris

What action would be taken against the dealer? How many chances would a dealer get?

 

[callipygian]

The most common cheating attempt we saw was someone playing 3 greens with a red on top, then dropping their bet to 4 red and the dealers at times would pay them still with 3 greens and a red instead of the 4 red.

That's not cheating.

 

[aslan]

That's not cheating.

Legally speaking.

 

[jack.jackson]

What action would be taken against the dealer? How many chances would a dealer get?

I really dont think, he was implying the dealer was in on it.

 

[aslan]

I really dont think, he was implying the dealer was in on it.

I meant chances due to his or her negligence. The house can't afford a staff of dealers who are giving away the store due to their negligence.

 

[jack.jackson]

Sort of. You might get away with it, but probably not, at least not for long. Seeing a black/red mix on the table is pretty suspicious and would probably be watched carefully.

It wouldn't be cheating, but it wouldn't work either. The heights of the stacks are different.

You'll note that dealers, or at least good dealers, will always stack your chips in a very specific order: highest denomination chips on the bottom, and the lowest denomination chips on top, set askew from the rest of the stack. If you push a rainbow (black-green-red-red-green-red-black-red) into the betting circle, the dealer will rearrange it to (black-black-"skew"-green-green-"skew"-red-red-red-red).

I doubt it would be successful. However, supposing it was, I do believe I detect an intent to deceive, jj, so in the moral sense it would be cheating considering your intent. However, in the legal world, it's not your fault if the dealer makes a mistake by paying you too much. You are probably free and clear in the legal sense. But your conscience will follow you wherever you go, jj. No sleep for the wicked!!! lol lol :laugh::laugh:

Thanks for the advice guys.

I meant chances due to his or her negligence. The house can't afford a staff of dealers who are giving away the store due to their negligence.

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