I have good results wuth my system for two years now.

M

Mister_No_Count

New Member
Sonny said:
There are many non-counting systems that do not flat bet and even a few progression systems that do flat bet.

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=3995

-Sonny-
Click to expand...
Flat betting is betting the same amount on each hand. Therefore, a non-count system that doesn't use flat bets would be a progression system, right?

A progression system that uses flat bets is not a progression system unless you are talking about a progression like Dahl where flat bets are utilized until a certain number of units are won before the bets are increased?

I looked at your links and the only thing I could glean from them was that a flat bet system might be profitable thru the use of couponing and comps? If there is some other way of winning with a flat-bet system, could you provide a more meaningful explanation?
 
Sonny

Sonny

Well-Known Member
Mister_No_Count said:
Flat betting is betting the same amount on each hand.
Click to expand...
Right.

Mister_No_Count said:
Therefore, a non-count system that doesn't use flat bets would be a progression system, right?
Click to expand...
No. Just because you are not using a progression system does not mean that you are flat betting. If you vary your bets randomly then you are not flat betting or using a progression system. Techniques like beating side bets, playing tournaments, sequencing, steering, sorting or any other type of location play are examples of non-counting methods that are not flat betting or progression systems. You are raising your bet when you have an advantage but that advantage doesn't have to come from card counting.

Mister_No_Count said:
If there is some other way of winning with a flat-bet system, could you provide a more meaningful explanation?
Click to expand...
Holecarding is a very good example of a non-counting flat betting system that can give you a strong advantage over the casino. All of the examples I've given so far have been mentioned in my previous link.

-Sonny-
 
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EugeneMiami

New Member
From EugeneMiami

First of all I've started this thread not for you guys cursing and offending each other, especially me:)

Please do not post offencive comments here, thank you...

Answering all of you, even Exhibit...

1. To Exhibit: I moved to Miami in 2006, but BJ in Hard Rock was offered later, first 2 years I was playing on casino boat leaving twice a day from Bayside (downtown Miami). Now their operation shut down.

2. To Exhibit: Selling system? Kidding? I have NO system... I just shared my experience and the way of play I'm comfortable with.

3. To Picasso: Yes, sometimes I have no choice but double and occasionally I exceed my limit per session (sometimes 23-25 BU).

4. Yes, there are shoe BJ tables here, but at the moment I'm not comfortable playing witn BU more than $15. I was trying count cards earlier (in Atlantic City), but this is not for me, too boring, I better play against the house edge but have more fun playing. I do not consider myself professional player and never wanted to be, just have fun playing.

5. To Mister No Count: not $565, according my records $525 per trip average, but I spend many hours each trip and come back often with empty pockets.

6. Yes, I was always sceptic about betting system, for me it is just way organize myself, my bets amount, and my time. If I wouldnt follow my way to play, I will come back broke EVERY TIME I go to casino, I have some previous experience. Surprisingly, I'm on winning streak for last two years, and dont see why I cant share my records on this forum with somebody else?
 
J

johndoe

Well-Known Member
No one faults your "records" at all. If you were this lucky, more power to you.

What we object to is your ascribing your good fortune to some sort of system. This kind of garbage can be a very expensive lesson for new people, and is horribly dangerous information.
 
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EugeneMiami

New Member
To JohnDoe

Again, your advises were very appreciated. I use to take statistics during university years long time ago, and I dont think you are far from exact number of hands needed to make a conclusion.

I never described my way to play as a system. For me it is very helpful:

1. I dont think about each hand bet amount and dont go crazy with it.

2. I leave casino after 100 series, won or lost.

Otherwise I will bet closer to table max and stay in casino a few days, waiting for midnight when I can use my credit cards again.

I'm sure losses are come sooner or later, but I'm still hoping it will be rather later or never.
 
J

johndoe

Well-Known Member
EugeneMiami said:
Again, your advises were very appreciated. I use to take statistics during university years long time ago, and I dont think you are far from exact number of hands needed to make a conclusion.
Click to expand...
Well, thanks, but if you think there is an "exact" number of hands, you need to review your old texts.

I never described my way to play as a system.
Click to expand...
Yes, you did. Both the title of the thread, and all over the first post. You're claiming that you have some sort of progression system that works. That's totally and utterly wrong.

Go ahead and trumpet your good luck, that's no problem. But don't call it 'success' based on any kind of 'system'.
 
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EugeneMiami

New Member
To JohnDoe

Oh man, sorry if I called it "system", I'm new here and didn't now exact semantics and meanings behind each word. I systemized MY way of play and thats why called it system. As you see, after few responses, I changed its name to "my way to play".
 
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EugeneMiami

New Member
My Last Trip

I usually record totals per each 10 seties, but last time I made records for each series.

Played 10 tables, 10 series each, BU equals $15, stoploss $300, winning goal per series 1 BU ($15 or more) All results rounded to $5 up or down in event of blackjack ($22.50) I usually play at the same table but make coffee (food) breaks after each 10 series (I usually reserve the spot to keep comps running)

Table 1

+55
+15
+15
+15
+15
+15
+15
+15
+15
+30 Total: +205

Table 2

+15
+15
+20
+15
+15
+45
+30
+60
+15
+15 Total: +245

Table 3

+45
+15
+15
+15
+15
+15
-300
+15
+15
+15 Total: -105

Table 4

+15
+15
+15
+30
+15
+15
+15
+20
+15
+30 Total: +185

Table 5

+25
+15
+15
+15
+15
+15
+15
+15
+15
+15 Total: +160

Table 6

+15
+15
+15
+15
-390
+45
+20
+15
+30
+15 Total: -205

Table 7

+15
+25
+30
+15
-300
+15
+15
+45
-300
+15 Total: -425

Table 8

+25
+30
+15
+30
+30
+15
+15
+15
+15
+15 Total: +205

Table 9

+30
+15
+15
+15
+15
+15
+15
+30
+45
+15 Total: +210

Table 10

+15
+20
+15
+15
+30
+15
+15
-300
+15
+45 Total: -115


Total per day: +360
 
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ExhibitCAA

Well-Known Member
thank u for clarifying. that helps.

if your use of a progression system is for the purpose of controlling what would otherwise be a wanton, gambling binge, then indeed this approach is an improvement, FOR YOU.

a bigger improvement would be to learn a counting method to identify advantageous situations.

for now, any system that causes you to bet less, less often, is an improvement. however, as others have said, your results with the system are simply due to luck. the casino has the edge against you. simulations are not even needed to determine this, nor is personal recordkeeping. it is an easily proved mathematical fact that the casino has the edge.

the analogy is if the guy who won last week's lottery said he is now ahead for the last two years of ticket purchases, and went on to conclude that his buy-two-tickets-every-friday system must be a winning, advantageous system.
 
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EugeneMiami

New Member
To JohnDoe

Hello,

In the beginning of this thread I have described my latest style of playing, where I exclude my own decisions on how much to bet and when to end the series.

As long my playing behavior was systemized, I called it "system" without claiming it is way to win. It works for me so far, but just because of luck.
I will not call it system anymore (sorry JohnDoe:)

But from my point of view ANY progression system is series of random bets not effecting odds and house edge. It does exactly the same thing to any player, as my rules of self-regulation do to me: player do not make any hard decisions during losing streak and has less chance of stroke or heart attack (I personally had both).

So, if "John Doe 2" comes to casino and makes random bets, hardly knowing rules of BJ, we can call it "John Doe 2" system as well as any other betting "system"?
 
J

johndoe

Well-Known Member
Thanks for clarifying. There has been a recent influx ignorant people around here promoting progressions as winning systems, which they most definitely are not.

And while I appreciate the thought, please don't ever name a progression system after me! :)
 
R

rick9194

Member
Sonny said:
Or about 5 seconds of simulation time. Do you see how much time you can save by testing a system properly? And the results are much more reliable too. There really is no excuse for testing a system manually.



We are not talking about non-counting systems, we are talking about progression systems. That is a very important distinction. There are absolutely no progression systems that will give you an advantage but there are many non-counting systems that will. Anyone looking at progression systems as a way to beat the game is barking up the wrong tree. The sooner they realize that the sooner they can start taking the game seriously.

-Sonny-
Click to expand...
I realize this is an old post. I wanted to ask about the "many non counting systems" that can give you an advantage. I was under the impression most only believe counting can give you an advantage. Maybe I read you post wrong.

Thanks
 
sagefr0g

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
rick9194 said:
I realize this is an old post. I wanted to ask about the "many non counting systems" that can give you an advantage. I was under the impression most only believe counting can give you an advantage. Maybe I read you post wrong.

Thanks
Click to expand...
one way to do it is to become a proficient counter your self, but you don't actually need to count much. instead scout joints for counters who are proficient, same thing for hc stuff.
it's likely they will be back over and over again.
join in the table and bet along with them.
 
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Renzey

Well-Known Member
rick9194 said:
I wanted to ask about the "many non counting systems" that can give you an advantage. I was under the impression most only believe counting can give you an advantage. Maybe I read you post wrong.Thanks
Click to expand...
There is one non-counting system that can in theory, give you an advantage, but it would take an extremely zealous application to employ it into net advantage territory all on its own. And it would be fine in CSM games. That's the realm of Hand Interaction. It includes:
Doubling on other players' hands
Getting in on their advantageous splits
Pawning off part of your own disadvantageous splits
Paying other players slightly over even money for their B/J's against an Ace
Buying into partnerships on other players' hands that are unseeming favorites
Laying sidebet odds that the dealer won't bust his "bust card" of 4, 5 or 6

You need to play at crowded tables to slow down the basic strategy drain on your own game and give you more opportunities for interaction. You also want to bet the table minimum where most of the other players are betting above that.

The bulk of the interaction plays mentioned above carry about a 5% or 6% positive EV. At a crowded table, if you can get in five interaction plays per hour, each for double the amount of your own bet, you've reversed the house basic strategy advantage to a half percent in your favor.

It's a tall order, but far from rocket science. I know of a player who just sits at the table with a stack of chips and virtually never plays a hand of his own. He just BS's with the other players and schmoozes his way into their splits and doubles. BTW, I've seen him go in on some bad splits just because they were correct basic strategy. So you've got to know what you're doing when you're a scavenger player.

As a "stand alone" strategy, I tend to view Hand Interaction as impractical. But if a person was as decicated to that as so many others who have mastered say, the Hi/Lo count, who can say?
 
A

assume_R

Well-Known Member
Renzey said:
There is one non-counting system that can in theory, give you an advantage, but it would take an extremely zealous application to employ it into net advantage territory all on its own. And it would be fine in CSM games. That's the realm of Hand Interaction. It includes:
Doubling on other players' hands
Getting in on their advantageous splits
Pawning off part of your own disadvantageous splits
Paying other players slightly over even money for their B/J's against an Ace
Buying into partnerships on other players' hands that are unseeming favorites
Laying sidebet odds that the dealer won't bust his "bust card" of 4, 5 or 6

You need to play at crowded tables to slow down the basic strategy drain on your own game and give you more opportunities for interaction. You also want to bet the table minimum where most of the other players are betting above that.

The bulk of the interaction plays mentioned above carry about a 5% or 6% positive EV. At a crowded table, if you can get in five interaction plays per hour, each for double the amount of your own bet, you've reversed the house basic strategy advantage to a half percent in your favor.

It's a tall order, but far from rocket science. I know of a player who just sits at the table with a stack of chips and virtually never plays a hand of his own. He just BS's with the other players and schmoozes his way into their splits and doubles. BTW, I've seen him go in on some bad splits just because they were correct basic strategy. So you've got to know what you're doing when you're a scavenger player.

As a "stand alone" strategy, I tend to view Hand Interaction as impractical. But if a person was as decicated to that as so many others who have mastered say, the Hi/Lo count, who can say?
Click to expand...
It seems that with these strategies you mentioned, there is a possibility for a very profitable 2-man team. They would pretend not to know each other, and both would play B.S. but one would bet big and the other would bet small. Then, the BP would try to "buy off" the good hands from the other player. This way, he gets to see the small player's cards (at a very low cost to the team - basically the small player's bet) and decide to put more money out when the small player has some profitable splits, etc.. Until the casino gets wise. Am I right in that this would work?

Edit: I realized this is stupid and probably wouldn't work unless he can get other players to bet against (not his own teammate). Durrrrr
 
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