Is there a "standard definition" of a UNIT?

[jaygruden]

Very curious about this one. From books I've read, it's been suggested that you determine your "unit" size based on size of your BR and your desired ROR, but I have heard (read) many talk about a unit as the following as well:

1. Minimum bet
2. Max bet
3. Average bet

I'm assuming there is no standard here. I just think it helps for readers to understand what someone is talking about.

For me, when I started out I was playing only at $10 tables with a 10K bank so I counted a unit as $10 (this gave me a higher ROR than desired but there were no $5 tables available for me to play). Now that my BR has increased substantially, I play primarily $25 tables so I measure units in $25 increments even when I occasionally play $15 tables and will build my ramp on $15 increments.

What criteria do you use to measure a unit?

Thanks

 

[AC232323]

I had always thought it was defined as your minimum bet. Defining it as max or average bet doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

 

[Richard Munchkin]

On our old count teams we always defined a unit as the amount you bet per half % advantage. So if we were betting a 2x100 unit then at a TC of 2 we bet 2x100, TC 3 would be 2x200 etc.

Many people here seem to use the term unit to mean their minimum bet.

 

[London Colin]

I think a source of potential confusion is that it seems to be implicit in most discussions that any change in unit size has an impact on all bets, including those made at a disadvantage (i.e. your minimum bet).

Presumably this is purely motivated by the desire to avoid heat. If you could get away with it, you would rather bet the table minimum until you have the advantage and then make an abrupt jump, thereafter going up in increments of one 'unit'. (Or better yet, sit out the -EV hands altogether.)

 

[sagefr0g]

well whoever put together the Blackjack Encyclopedia just gives a 'typical' description, so i guess there is no definite standard, lol.

http://www.bjrnet.com/member/bjapr/U.htm
unit. A measure used to signify an amount won or spread without actually indicating the dollar amount. One unit is typically a players minimum or regular bet. (e.g., I won 10 units last night.)

"it's considered by some to be a myth that all professionals think and talk in terms of "units"."
the use of the term units obscures the fact that bet sizes and win rates are not truly scalable. there are many aspects of casino operations that prevent simple scaling. from Beyond Counting...
so essentially, nothing wrong with toying around with the concept of units, comparing values of games and techniques, but the real nitty gritty is bank roll size.
it's all about the bankroll, baby.:cool2:
edit: in QFIT's software i believe a unit is considered the same thing as minimum bet

 

[shadroch]

To me and mine, a unit is your average bet when the count is at or close to neutral.

 

[Richard Munchkin]

When trying to size your bets to some fraction of Kelly it helps to think of units in terms of how much you are betting at 1% advantage.

For you that call a unit your minimum bet, say you are normally playing at a $25 table, so you call your unit $25. Now say you go to a low roller joint and they have $5 tables. Are you suddenly going to bet $5 units? Are you still going to bet $25 on negatives?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

When trying to size your bets to some fraction of Kelly it helps to think of units in terms of how much you are betting at 1% advantage.

For you that call a unit your minimum bet, say you are normally playing at a $25 table, so you call your unit $25. Now say you go to a low roller joint and they have $5 tables. Are you suddenly going to bet $5 units? Are you still going to bet $25 on negatives?

Probably, depending on the game. A spread (as in min/max ratio) that is too big will attract undue attention, and if the game is good enough for me to be in the low roller joint it's good enough to avoid getting tossed out of.

For Kelly purposes I treat everything in terms of max bets. My max bet is where I have a 2% advantage (in straight BJ.) Everything scales down proportionally, as far as I can or dare.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Minimal Standards?

In the BJ Attack series Don S. I believe uses the minimal bet which happens to be $25.

If one occasionally lowers the minimum bet the unit should still probably be considered the same because the large bets would still be the same.

If Don S. & Qfit both use minimal bets that may be considered the standard unit.

 

[blacksheep]

To me and mine, a unit is your average bet when the count is at or close to neutral.

This has always been my understanding as well from the books that I've read. You're unit size is the default bet that you place in a neutral count or at the top of a new shoe (unless you're tracking of course).

For you that call a unit your minimum bet, say you are normally playing at a $25 table, so you call your unit $25. Now say you go to a low roller joint and they have $5 tables. Are you suddenly going to bet $5 units? Are you still going to bet $25 on negatives?

I would take this to mean your unit would still be $25 and what you would bet right off the top or in a neutral count, but now you have the option of going below your normal unit when the count goes negative instead of leaving the shoe or having to play those counts at the same base rate as your slightly better neutral counts.

 

[kewljason]

I have to admit, My use of the term unit is fuzzy. Generally, I go along with AutoMonk. I work backwards from my max bet. In the games that I play most, 6 decks, it works out pretty uniformly. I play $25 tables and spread minimum to my max in some sort of increments of $25, with can be a spread of 1-16, to 1-24 depending on the tolerance levels of each particular house, so $25 is generally what I think of as my unit.

However, when I play double deck it gets real fuzzy for me. I keep my max bet in the same range, but my minimum bet changes. So on double deck I might start out spreading $75 to $450. A 1-6 spread which seems pretty tame and non threatening. But when the count goes negative, I will back down to $50. So I was never sure if my unit in these games was $75, or $50 or still $25, but I was spreading 3-18 or 2-18. :laugh: As I said kind of fuzzy. It all works out to money for me. The term 'unit' really only comes into play during discussions on the site, and generally when I say unit, I am referring to $25, although that's not really accurate for some games.

 

[bigplayer]

Unit defined

Very curious about this one. From books I've read, it's been suggested that you determine your "unit" size based on size of your BR and your desired ROR, but I have heard (read) many talk about a unit as the following as well:

1. Minimum bet
2. Max bet
3. Average bet

I'm assuming there is no standard here. I just think it helps for readers to understand what someone is talking about.

For me, when I started out I was playing only at $10 tables with a 10K bank so I counted a unit as $10 (this gave me a higher ROR than desired but there were no $5 tables available for me to play). Now that my BR has increased substantially, I play primarily $25 tables so I measure units in $25 increments even when I occasionally play $15 tables and will build my ramp on $15 increments.

What criteria do you use to measure a unit?

Thanks

Your bottom bet is your bottom bet...it is not your betting unit unless you are wonging and never play at a disadvantage. Your bottom bet might be your unit if you play only single deck.

Your unit should be what you bet at each count when you have the edge. Our unit for a good ruled shoe game is around one hand of $400 at each high-low TC above +1. Our bottom bet is always table minimum or zero. Now you may use your bottom bet to describe the magnitude of your bet spread but your bottom bet is not your unit.

 

[tthree]

Your bottom bet is your bottom bet...it is not your betting unit unless you are wonging and never play at a disadvantage. Your bottom bet might be your unit if you play only single deck.

Your unit should be what you bet at each count when you have the edge. Our unit for a good ruled shoe game is around one hand of $400 at each high-low TC above +1. Our bottom bet is always table minimum or zero. Now you may use your bottom bet to describe the magnitude of your bet spread but your bottom bet is not your unit.

Wow, this was productive. Unit is semantic. I have heard it used, when the user is nice enough to define it, as either smallest bet or average bet. The point of the OP is to get us all on the same page for better communication. I use the smallest bet in my spread. Trying to figure your average bet is not always easy.

 

[Josh Axelrad]

units

On our old count teams we always defined a unit as the amount you bet per half % advantage. So if we were betting a 2x100 unit then at a TC of 2 we bet 2x100, TC 3 would be 2x200 etc.

Ditto.

 

[EmeraldCityBJ]

In recent years, I've defined one unit to equal one dollar regardless of the spread or the game. This has worked out very well because the number of units won happens to match dollars won.

There are problems with defining a unit as either a min bet or a max bet since both of these factors can change depending on where you play. The more obvious scenario is with min bets since you might like to bet $5 in negative/neutral counts, but often get stuck playing at a $10 table. Table max or casino tolerance can create issues when measuring in terms of "max bets". Even if the casino offers a higher maximum that we will ever play, we often set a max bet to limit our spread even though we could bet more in high EV situations. This artifical max bet restriction we place on ourselves can vary from one casino to the next.

Of all the definitions I've ever seen, I like Richard Munchkin's the best. The dollar amount bet at an N% advantage is not going to change based on min/max bets offered by a casino or on casino tolerance. However, the dollar amount assigned to a unit could vary depending on the game you happen to be playing if you take advantage of promotions or play other games which have a standard deviation significantly different from a typical blackjack game.

 

[WRX]

I'm with Emerald City, in looking to dollars rather than to some essentially arbitrary definition of "unit," in most circumstances. Too often, players rate their success, or lack thereof, in terms of "units" won or lost. But you know what? It doesn't impress me in the least to hear that a player won 220 units, if it turns out that the unit was $3 or something. It's much more interesting to hear that a player scored a $20,000 win. And it doesn't particularly matter what spread the player was using. If he got down a successful play, and was able to get the casino to take his action, it may well have been through flat betting, depending on the type of play.

There may be contexts in which speaking of units is meaningful, but rating success is not one of them. This isn't bridge. We're not playing for points. We're playing for money.

Although the way things are going, it might become more relevant to rate success in terms of yuan than in dollars.

 

[psyduck]

It doesn't impress me in the least to hear that a player won 220 units, if it turns out that the unit was $3 or something. It's much more interesting to hear that a player scored a $20,000 win.

I disagree. In terms of how well one played a game, it is more impressive for a player to win $200 betting $2 than another player winning $1000 betting $500.

I consider the smallest bet size as unit.

 

[kewljason]

I started using the term units a while back simply because then players at any level could relate to what was being said. If someone posts that they won $12,000 yesterday, without further information, you have no idea exactly what that means. If he is spreading $500-$4000, it is a pretty modest win. But if he is spreading $100-$800 it becomes more significant. $25-$300 even more so. But if the person says I won 240 units yesterday, everyone can immediately relate to that. 240 units is 240 units whether your unit is $5 or $500.

 

[WRX]

If someone posts that they won $12,000 yesterday, without further information, you have no idea exactly what that means. If he is spreading $500-$4000, it is a pretty modest win. But if he is spreading $100-$800 it becomes more significant.

For that purpose, I think that the size of player's top bet is far more meaningful than the player's "unit."

 

[tthree]

For that purpose, I think that the size of player's top bet is far more meaningful than the player's "unit."

A guy goes in and plops down a $15,000 bet and wins and walks. Another guy worked for hours to make 1000 $15 units spreading $15 to 2x$150. The count never got good enough to make his top bets. They win the same. One is obviously an impressive feat of skill the other just a hand of blackjack. How big was his unit? He never made his top bet. Was it the biggest bet he actually made? Was it the max bet he intended to make? If so, is it $300, $150 or the single hand equivalent of $200? Pretty confusing idea of unit size. I think Munchkin had the most useful definition for unit when standardizing discussion.