keeping it simple

[blackjack avenger]

On Competency

The standard is to count a deck in 30s without error, some probably would add multiple times.

If you pass the test using a higher level count then you have passed the bar and therefore should have no more of an error rate then a lower level count player, or the standard means nothing.

Once the competency level is reached the discussion is over, the higher level counts outperform!

 

[blackjack avenger]

Brainpower

Probably the biggest hurdle in counting is the actual counting, once you cross this hurdle things should get easier. I don't think a higher level count takes 99.999% of our brain power where hi lo only takes up 37.45% of our mental capacity.

It comes down to ones ability. If a higher level count is easy then why not use it?

What if using hi lo takes 47% of brain capacity but halves takes 47.14% of brain capacity. Then it seems for the extra effort the 10% return is well worth it.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Mixed Discussion

Considering counts may not be the right question. A player generally uses one count. The question may be:

Is camo worth it and what camo to use?

Part of this question may be do we need camo "in the moment" or "all the time". I would think a big player would need camo all/most of the time because the eye may start to watch him fairly quickly and he may face more after the play scrutiny.

Should one throw camo in order to play longer in a session? How far is the next casino?

 

[mica]

How long to transition to a half count ?

How long do u think it would take someone who is proficient with hi lo to be able to use a half count? Do u use half counts in all situations? How many indices do u use...and where did u find them?

Thanks!

Mica

 

[zengrifter]

Hit and run is cover, but at some places (maybe even many) it is actually the opposite.

Forsooth. zg

 

[blackjack avenger]

Already Arrived

How long do u think it would take someone who is proficient with hi lo to be able to use a half count? Do u use half counts in all situations? How many indices do u use...and where did u find them?

Thanks!

Mica

hi lo is fully functional
I am referring to Wong Halves

 

[blackjack avenger]

Cry Havoc

#1 Who are you 'debating' this with? Where did anyone say anything about perfect play?

Discussion works as well as debate. Whenever anyone mentions error rate of higher counts they never realize the lower BC of the lower level count, which is in effect an error in assigning tags according to the EOR. There is also this underlying theme that higher level counts cause errors while the low level counts one uses error free. I showed examples that many error's can happen across counts used.

#2 You are confusing error with a weakness of a particular count. If a player counts a 7 as neutral because the count calls for such, that is not an error. That is a weakness in that count.

no matter the semantics higher level outperforms, once competency is reached.

#3 This is just subjective and opinion. Proof of this is in the use of words like 'probably', 'may' and 'can'. A statement with these words carries no weight. If you think the error rate would be the same for level 1 vs level 2 counts, I ask to to try the following experiment and report back. Line up 1000 people. Hold up flashcards with a series of ten (10) plus or minus numbers, asking them to add them. +1, +1, -1, +1, -1, -1, -1, +1, -1, -1 vs +2, +1, -2, -2, +1, -2, +2, +1, -2, +1 Compare the error rates. They will not be the same.

The basis of my statements is objective, higher level counts outperform, no escaping the fact. Again, once competency is reached. So given your counting example once competency is reached then the error rate is near non existent. Are you competent in simple daily math? So you have a very low error rate.

#4 Hit and run will cost some time and yes time is money. No argument there. The premise is that it is buying longevity. Future earnings. You can return to that location and continue to extract money for a longer period of time.

we agree

#5 Again, you are not adding in the longevity factor. A bit shorter table time now, or more actual time to get same number of hands, but more future earnings via longevity.

So many variables in your OP that one cannot give a definitive answer.

If nothing else, I am glad to have been able to brighten your day and make you "happy", avenger

Beats being :sad:

 

[kewljason]

Obviously in hindsight this discussion was a bad idea. You guys aren't going to change my mind that I should consider going back to a higher level count for a 5-10% adavantage that shows up in simulations, but I don't beleive fully translated into real play. I play a simple count that while I am not fool enough to believe I play perfectly, being a human being, I know I play it pretty damn efficently. It identified a large majority of the advantagous situations and meshes well with my style of play and leaves me free to attempt a few other manuevers.

At the same time, I apparently can't convince you of the benefits of simplicity and that anything other than a level 1 count and a few dozen indices is just overkill and not necessary or beneficial to the majority of players and members of this site. But I must say, it saddens me, when you guys that are proponents of this convince some recreational player who already is proficient with a level one count to abandon it in favor of re-learning a higher level count, which is not going to benefit them all that much. Apparently this just happened and probably happens after each of these discussions. It really is a disservice that you are doing. :sad:

 

[Tarzan]

Splatt!

I spent a few years working on my count before I ever played my first actual hand of live blackjack in a casino. I felt it was important to have a superior count, so I dreamed up something that blew away hi-lo or much of anything else for that matter, creating an entire system from scratch. It was simply a matter of having more information to work with and wanting to achieve higher than normal standards than simple numberline systems. Level 1? level 2? I wanted to achieve a level that was off the chart... and it is.

I did what I thought was the right thing to do and started right out trying to be innovative and never looked back. I would never use any other count, especially after all THIS time. I read about this stuff on here and see that some people change their counting methods almost as often as they change their underwear it seems. In blackjack books I have read, I have always skipped or simply skimmed over the sections that detail counting methods, disregarding these portions as useless to me.

Use whatever gives you a tried and proven result! I don't wish to go into details of my count, it's not like anyone would want to do it anyway; There's simpler ways. Flash knows some of the details of my count but that's because he is amused by such things and likes to know about every type of count known to mankind! If by next week someone named "JSplatt" comes out with the official "JSplatt 12count" Flash would have at least a passing interest in it...

 

[tthree]

Tarzan speaks the truth. Let him team up with automatic monkey. All they would need is Jane.:laugh:

Seriously his count is unbelievable.

 

[psyduck]

Mr. Tarzan,

I encountered your Tarzan count in a previous post of yours. It is really one of a kind based on what I have seen. I am just curious if you have data to show how much improvement your system has over say HiLo. 20%, 50%, or more?

BTW, I have never encouraged anyone to switch to a higher count. All I have been doing is to collect data and judge for myself if it is worthwhile for ME to switch. The truth is people make different decisions based on the same information.

 

[mica]

Please share Tarzan

Tarzan....you r wrong that no one is interested...if u have a superior counting system....PLEASE share....jane's all over the world want to hear from u!

PM is fine if y prefer.

Thx!

Mica

 

[Sucker]

At the same time, I apparently can't convince you of the benefits of simplicity and that anything other than a level 1 count and a few dozen indices is just overkill and not necessary or beneficial to the majority of players and members of this site.

It is ironic; considering the fact that the people who are playing this game for a living are almost UNANIMOUS in the opinion that all new counters should just learn a simple count and stick with it throughout their career.

Question to forum members: Doesn't this tell you something?

But I must say, it saddens me, when you guys that are proponents of this convince some recreational player who already is proficient with a level one count to abandon it in favor of re-learning a higher level count, which is not going to benefit them all that much. Apparently this just happened and probably happens after each of these discussions. It really is a disservice that you are doing. :sad:

It is sad indeed. :sad: But we must forgive them, for they know not what they do.

 

[Tarzan]

Obscurity

Tarzan....you r wrong that no one is interested...if u have a superior counting system....PLEASE share....jane's all over the world want to hear from u!

PM is fine if y prefer.

Thx!

Mica

Trust me because I am your pal. I am not up to the task because you need to go the whole nine yards or not do it at all and to take something like my count on, my best guess is that you would have to go through the equivalent of a "blackjack concentration camp" for about 6 months in which you are locked away with different numbers of decks and shoes, 10 or 12 legal pads, a stack of pens and pencils, a scientific calculator, plugging away for 8 hours a day of tables, conversions, memorization, etc. I wouldn't even know where to begin. Should you survive that (most wouldn't), then we begin with decks/shoes marked with "sharpie" pens around the edges to begin the shuffle-tracking phase of it. I have been fine tuning this thing for over 25 years. I don't have time, you don't have time, etc.--- Flash, who knows a lot about my count says it's the most obscure crazy thing ever and he agrees with me that it would be all but impossible to teach to others unless they had incredible aptitude and LOTS of time. As a matter of fact, I am currently looking around for various old notes, tables, etc. on specific parameters of the Tarzan count for him to review this week, merely a curiousity thing on his part. He's the only person I have ever shared this information with because I feel that he is one of the few people that understands it and how a DHME style system works. In essence, I go beyond DHME though.

Tthree doesn't know the actual workings of the system itself and has merely seen me flip through a few decks of cards and then state the exact composition/cards remaining in the last quarter deck or so prior to flipping them over. If we had some weeks instead of a few hours, I could have told or showed him more.

If you want to learn an advanced count, I suggest Flash. He is into teaching and training people and sharing (a very vast knowledge) of gaming related things. He will push this HiOpt2 count, obviously his favorite... but it's a "mainstream" sort of widely used more advanced count. He is quite good about lots of little details, has a VAST library of blackjack references and has poured over every word of it all. Me on the other hand, although I have poured over many of the same books and references... I am more like "Yoda" from "Star Wars" on a far away planet that has gone off in a strange and different direction and lives in an odd patch of swamp by myself...

 

[tthree]

I would never share what Tarzan told me with anyone. This is his intellectual property. I know what the counting technique is and how he derived his systems indices etc. I understand what it would take to maximize the advantage gained from the information gathered by his count. Someone going to this kind of work, that makes the level 2 work everyone is complaining is not worth the effort look like BS, wouldn't stop until all that effort was optimized. IMHO his above post is very conservative about what it says of time lines.

 

[Sharky]

...Level 2 generally allows a smaller spread to return the same or more with a much lower risk of ruin..

examples?..not disputing, plz show the magnitude

...This will become very important in the future.

and the present

 

[zengrifter]

I would never share what Tarzan told me with anyone. This is his intellectual property. I know what the counting technique is and how he derived his systems indices etc.

Tarzan, is it a multiparameter system?
How many side counts?
Do you use it in 6D too? zg

 

[zengrifter]

I am more like "Yoda" from "Star Wars" on a far away planet that has gone off in a strange and different direction and lives in an odd patch of swamp by myself...

Yoda? Yoda says, "Just go with the force, dummy!" z:laugh:g

 

[zengrifter]

seriously, all of the discussion about the finer points of straight-counting on this site is just trivial.

JG lampoons these last few points in the following threads on BC:

Being Ready--Part I, JG, beyondcounting.com

Why A Guy Can't Make it With $5k, JG, beyondcounting.com

Spaw

The Spaw is morphing slowly into The Syph. z:laugh:g

 

[Gamblor]

Hey Tarzan, sounds like your count would be especially effective with various side bets :grin: