No because you are altering the game devices.Sucker said:So if I can mark cards and get away with it, that means I'm not cheating?After all, it's the casinos responsibility to ALSO make sure no one's marking cards!
Hard to believe; the consensus so far seems to be of the opinion that purposely defrauding someone is somehow NOT cheating.
This does not necessarily mean that I disapprove of someone who makes this move once in a while.
Kid I found trying to cheat
- Thread starter S2krazy03
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Lonesome Gambler
Well-Known Member
As Johndoe mentioned, it's clearly shot-taking, not cheating. But it is, in my opinion, completely unethical and low-rent. Counting and hole card play both simply involve using your powers of observation, while this type of "advantage" play is done specifically to trick someone into making a mistake.
Now, I'm not necessarily a shining beacon of ethicality—I've conspired to induce errors in dealers (although this is generally limited to altering a table's configuration, not trying to "trick" them, necessarily)—but I really feel this kind of blatant shot-taking is below legitimate advantage players.
Now, I'm not necessarily a shining beacon of ethicality—I've conspired to induce errors in dealers (although this is generally limited to altering a table's configuration, not trying to "trick" them, necessarily)—but I really feel this kind of blatant shot-taking is below legitimate advantage players.
SWFL Blackjack
Well-Known Member
I'm not saying I agree or disagree with what he is doing, I just think he should be careful because it could be considered fraud.HockeXpert said:You better return all those mispays you have collected over the years.
And as for mispays, I'll return mine as soon as the casinos correct every payout error they have ever done in their favor.
Pay attention - This was EXACTLY my point - BOTH of these things are cheating; one is prosecutable, one is not. Are you trying to say that a criminal act is NOT a crime, as long as it can't be proven? O.J. is NOT a murderer?HockeXpert said:
BTW; your inapplicable sarcasm was NOT lost on me. :whip:
HockeXpert
Well-Known Member
Read post #15 above. I admit it is cheating but, as you pointed out, it can't be proved.Sucker said:
I was not being sarcastic. I was being sincere. That was a clever analogy you used. That's the trouble with email and forums. People often assume others are being nasty because the reader can't hear the tone used.
Like most of these arguments, it mostly hinges on semantics. What do you really mean by "cheating"?
Legally: Cheating is something that you could be arrested and/or viably prosecuted for. Shot-taking probably won't count, HC won't count, but card marking would.
Morally: Cheating is something that crosses someone's moral line, which is vastly different among people. For some people, card counting is "cheating", since the casino explicitly does not permit it.
Socially: Cheating could be defined as something you wouldn't think of doing when playing a friendly game, for example with friends at low/zero stakes. If you wouldn't do it there, then perhaps it's cheating.
Personally, I stick with the legal definition, since it's best-defined, and most relevant to an AP.
Legally: Cheating is something that you could be arrested and/or viably prosecuted for. Shot-taking probably won't count, HC won't count, but card marking would.
Morally: Cheating is something that crosses someone's moral line, which is vastly different among people. For some people, card counting is "cheating", since the casino explicitly does not permit it.
Socially: Cheating could be defined as something you wouldn't think of doing when playing a friendly game, for example with friends at low/zero stakes. If you wouldn't do it there, then perhaps it's cheating.
Personally, I stick with the legal definition, since it's best-defined, and most relevant to an AP.
I'd agree that the casino is responsible to count the totals and yes, they do allow intoxicated people to chance their money (shame on them). I just think that intentionally doing this is 'sneaking by' something a player isn't supposed to do, like being able to see a holecard. It's like the fine line between hole-carding being cheating and not being considered cheating: did the person have the intention of doing this already or was it dealer carelessness on the spot and in that moment? I believe actually trying to pass off a 22 or 23 as a winning hand qualifies as cheating (whether or not the dealer catches it is on the casino). It isn't necessarily changing the outcome of cards dealt, it isn't using a device but it is trying to pass off a losing hand as a winning hand in hopes that the dealer doesn't catch you, which is waaay different than simply counting cards and recognizing when you have the advantage.
jaygruden
Well-Known Member
Matter of personal choice but I look at it this way.....
If the dealer can make a mistake by underpaying the player or taking money or pushing the player on a win (which we all see these things happen all the time). then I can make a mistake by accepting over-payment or accepting payment on a loss or push.
If the dealer can make the mistake of miscounting the players hand to go against the player then I think it is only logical that I can make the mistake of miscounting my hand to go against the casino.
They are supposed to be the experts at this game and I just the lowly degenerate gambler who wants to give my money away for the entertainment value of it.
If it is feasible that they can make "honest" mistakes against my favor then why is it not feasible that I can make "honest" mistakes against their favor? This falls in the category of AP'ing, IMHO.
One time I hit a BJ and the dealer paid me, but failed to scoop my cards. She played out the rest of the table, busted out, then proceeded to pay me again. Five minutes later the PB comes over to me and says that the eye noticed that the dealer paid me twice for BJ. I protested and the PB said they had it on tape. The PB then says to me "How could you not notice that she paid you twice?" I said, "if she could pay me twice without noticing, then why is it not believable that I could accept payment twice without noticing?"
I say "what's good for the goose......."
I think exchanges of money at venues where you a purchasing real products or services (not gambling) are much different. I always correct the cashier if she gives me too much change at the super market. I feel like that is stealing. Then again, I do not go to the grocery store to make advantage plays on my Ramen Noddles, even if I am shopping at the A&P:laugh:
If the dealer can make a mistake by underpaying the player or taking money or pushing the player on a win (which we all see these things happen all the time). then I can make a mistake by accepting over-payment or accepting payment on a loss or push.
If the dealer can make the mistake of miscounting the players hand to go against the player then I think it is only logical that I can make the mistake of miscounting my hand to go against the casino.
They are supposed to be the experts at this game and I just the lowly degenerate gambler who wants to give my money away for the entertainment value of it.
If it is feasible that they can make "honest" mistakes against my favor then why is it not feasible that I can make "honest" mistakes against their favor? This falls in the category of AP'ing, IMHO.
One time I hit a BJ and the dealer paid me, but failed to scoop my cards. She played out the rest of the table, busted out, then proceeded to pay me again. Five minutes later the PB comes over to me and says that the eye noticed that the dealer paid me twice for BJ. I protested and the PB said they had it on tape. The PB then says to me "How could you not notice that she paid you twice?" I said, "if she could pay me twice without noticing, then why is it not believable that I could accept payment twice without noticing?"
I say "what's good for the goose......."
I think exchanges of money at venues where you a purchasing real products or services (not gambling) are much different. I always correct the cashier if she gives me too much change at the super market. I feel like that is stealing. Then again, I do not go to the grocery store to make advantage plays on my Ramen Noddles, even if I am shopping at the A&P:laugh: