Knock Out Black Jack

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rzerector

Member
Yeah suprizingly those indexes are just the illustrious 18 which i have memorized. One more thing though, I discovered what to do about those skyrocketing "fake" counts as I call them. There is a section in KO about when to leave the table, say after 1 deck is played in an 8 deck game and the count is above -32. That chart is VERY IMPORTANT. If you stay at a table and the count has skyrocketed in the opposite direction at any time even if it evens out by the end of the shoe you'll get a fake pivot point and key count read and get those bum hands. Find that chart and memorize it, and if the shoe goes aove the specified count AT ANY TIME during play for the specified decks do not play that shoe anymore, its dead. That should solve those skyrocketing count when you stil get bum hands, it did for me.
Happy counting my KO brother.
 
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LeonShuffle

Well-Known Member
Where does it say anything about a 'fake pivot point'? It seems to me that if you just sat out once a shoe hits an 'exit point', that you could jump back in once it evens out or gets good. Maybe I'm missing something though.
 
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Xestar

Member
Maybe....this

Hey SystemsTrader and GlennRuss.

What you said about the large negative numbers using the KO-Count:

I was thinking... What if u just start to count from zero. then, When you know the Running Count you just add this up to -28 ( This number depends on the number of decks you're playing with )

here's an example....
==================================================
Normal KO-Count:
=> -28 +1 +1 +1 -1 = -26 ( where you have to remember all those large
numbers )
------------------------------
Now you do it this way:

=> +1 +1 +1 -1= +2 (RC) -28 +2= -26(TC)

..then comes the next hand...

=> -1+1+1-1+1= +1 (RC) -26+1= -25(TC)

==================================================
EXTRA: There are two ways to do this kind of method what you read above was the first one, here's the second one:


=> +1 +1 +1 -1= +2 (Running C.) -28 +2= -26(True C)
..then comes the next hand...(THIS TIME YOU KEEP THE 2 FROM THE PREVIOUS HAND IN MIND !!!)

=> +2 -1+1+1-1+1= +3 (Running C.) -28+3= -25(True C.)


*This isn't a really big change. But maybe you'll find it easier to just count the smaller numbers like: "Six" and later add them up to the Initial Running Count(IRC), instead of counting "twen-ty-five, Twen-ty-four"..etc.. Y'know ?

==================================================

Hope it helps :)

--NOTE: This is a method I came up with while I was reading GlennRuss's and Systemtrader's Post. SO i'm not sure if this method is correct. I'm merely thinking out loud here ;) --


(srry for the late post, but I just joined recently )
 
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SystemsTrader

Well-Known Member
Xestar, the great thing about KO is its adaptability with the count. What I have done is for all decks I start my count at zero and then adjust my key and pivot points from there. I am very comfortable with this method.
 
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Xestar

Member
Oh ok. Srry SystemsTrader. ( didn't read the entire thread )
I didn't knew there was already a solution to those large numbers. Quite an unneccesary post then :p

I'm now Practising KO-Count as well. But there's still one thing that's not really clear to me.

You don't have to divide by Deck number in order to get to know the True Count right ?
So let's say I play a game of 6-Deck blackjack( IRC= -20 )
and after a while there's only about 2 Decks left that have to be played. This doesn't affect the IRC anymore right ?
 
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SystemsTrader

Well-Known Member
Xestar, no you don't have to divide the decks for a true count. KO is known as an unbalanced count. There is no true count conversion to make. The whole purpose of an unbalanced count is to eliminate the true count conversion. To account for this KO has an extra negative card so at the end of counting one deck you should be at -4. Which is why you start at -20 with 6 decks. Your edge appears at the key and pivot points.
 
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Xestar

Member
Oh ok now I understand. Thanks a bunch ! :D
I'm gonna keep on practising this system. sounds easier than Hi/Lo to me.
 
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Chris

Member
Our Slightly better then coin toss Advantage?

I have a question that Im sure someone here can answer.

Why is it when the count is High that we the player have an advantage. Is It because with high 10's and A's we have a greater chance of geting a 17+ without busting? If this was the case wouldnt the dealer have that same chance... or is it because the dealer now has a greater chance of busting. Or is it for some other reason that Im not catching here.....?
 
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LeonShuffle

Well-Known Member
1) The dealer has a greater chance of busting when holding a stiff hand because they have to hit and you don't.

2) You have a better chance of winning your double downs, especially on 10s and 11s.

3) Although you and the dealer both have a better chance at getting dealt a blackjack, you receive 3 to 2 on yours while only losing your original bet on the dealer's.
 
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Chris

Member
ahh right that makes sense. Thanks for the acknowledgement. Ive been spoonfed all the rules, Its just good to know the reason why they are applied.
 
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grandmajens

New Member
Questions about IRC and different deck sizes

LeonShuffle said:
I use KO and I've customized my count like this.

For 8 deck, my IRC=28, KC=50, P=60
From 50 to 52 I bet 2 units, 53=3, 54=4 and so on.

For 6 deck, IRC=36, KC=52, P=60
At 52, I bet 2 units, 53=3, 54=4 and so on.

I found this to be the easiest because of no negatives and it makes betting easy. 50 and 60 are easy to remember and the pivot point stays the same in both cases. Insurance should be taken at 59.
Click to expand...
Hey all, I have read the book and Pretty much understand the unbalanced count. I would like my IRC to be about 36 all the time, but don't understand how you can just figure it out for 2 and 4 deck games? Is there an equation I would use? Thanks so much--Robin
 
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grandmajens

New Member
Question about practicing card counting

Hi all, I bought the book and my husband and I are going to try it out. I have been practicing A LOT and just like the book says, getting pretty good at dealing everyone two cards and the dealer, etc.,etc. BUT then I get on a practice blackjack site and realize that DUH, people get more than two cards, and sometimes they bust and the dealer just takes their cards away....

SO, I'm wondering how you guys practice? Do you count each card as it comes up or kind of pair them (cancel them out with a hi-then low). It sounds like a dumb question but I thought I was doing SO well practicing and now this one "real blackjack" site has got me thinkin...

I know BS pretty well, and my cover is going to be I'm going to be the Dumb new girl with her cheating card sitting there trying to figure out what plays I'm going to make all the while I'm counting cards. Also I'm going to tip every so often because the books say that card counters never tip. My hubby is going to sit at the same table HOPEFULLY and just follow my lead. Any tips on practicing? Thanks a lot, Robin
 
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LeonShuffle

Well-Known Member
Robin,

As for your first question, remember that the unbalance in this system is due to the fact that 6 cards are counted as +1 and only 5 cards as -1. In KOs case, all 7s are counted, therefore with each deck, your IRC would be 4 below your pivot point (Four 7s per deck). If you keep your IRC the same no matter the number of decks, then your pivot point would always be different and you'd have to remember different indeces for different shoe sizes, which would make it very difficult. Better to keep your pivot point the same and adjust your IRC. In my case I use 60 as the pivot, therefore for 1 deck the IRC would be 56 (four 7s), for 2 decks it would be 52 (eight 7s). I only play in A.C. which has mostly 8 deck shoes and some 6 decks. When I sit at an 8 decker I just start at 28 (32 7s) and 36 (24 7s) for a 6 decker.

As far as counting, I don't even look at the table until everyone has been dealt one card. I glance around at other tables or talk to a friend. Then as each second card comes out I count the pairs around the table. For each additional hit, I go one at a time. When you practice at home, you should practice 1, 2, and 3 cards at a time. And you should really know BS perfectly so you don't have to think about what to do at all.

Hope this helps a little.
 
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lagavulin62

Well-Known Member
robin,

you will probably get a different answer for how to count cards with every person you ask. as for me I have always counted from the first card dealt. it puts less pressure on me to be ahead of the dealer so that I can seem more relaxed when I play. with ko and all the cancellations you will be able to look at 3 or 4 cards pretty quickly and get the count. I think most people count by two's, thats the best flow for me but you will also get faster once you get quicker counting by 3's and 4's. I don't wait for 4 cards to come out but if I get distracted for some reason I can look back quickly and adjust for 3 or 4 cards if necessary. the hardest part will be counting quickly when you have to take more than the two cards dealt. some people adjust the running count only after they have completed their hand but I adjust for each individual card I hit. it takes more practice because you will have to have two similtaneous counts, the running count then your card total, but I find it easier because I never have to worry about having the dealer swoop up my cards after a bust before I have had a chance to adjust the running count. the best way to practice this is to play the dealer with a few decks of cards with say 4-5 hands while counting.

hope that helps.

mike
 
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grandmajens

New Member
quick reply

Thanks so much for the quick reply you guys. I FINALLY get it! It sounds so easy when you explain it! Anyway, we're off tomorrow to some little casinos in WI so wish me luck.....Robin
 
TonyDee

TonyDee

Well-Known Member
lagavulin62 said:
system trader,

the software I have been using is the casino verite full version which cost 90 dollars. it was certainly not a waste of money. they have a lite version for 47 dollars
Click to expand...

I just bought the lite version 2 mintues ago from their site. I decided to get serious about card counting and Arnold Synder said this was the best on teh market (exceot of course for the full version).

I decided I would rather use this software as a trainer since its suppose to simulate real casino conditions.

fosr those interested, it was $52usd shipped to Canada
 
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SethCLevin

Member
Questions about KO Blackjack matrix

On page 85 of the book there is a matrix for specific conditions. Am I reading it correctly: when you have a hard 12 and the dealer has a 2 or 3 with a running count of plus 4 you stand?
When you hve a hard 16 and the dealer has a 10 in a 2 deck game with a plus 1 running count you stand or surrender? The same thing when it is a 6 deck game with a running count of minus 4 and with an 8 deck and a minus 6 you would stand or surrender?
In a 2 deck game when you have a 12 and the dealer has a 4,5 or 6 with a running count of minus 4 do you hit? Also in a 2 deck game when you have a 13 and the dealer has a 2 or 3 with a running count of minus 4 do you hit?
Thanks, [email protected]
 
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