Ko Indexs

[blackchipjim]

I wondering if anyone has an oppinion on the indexs for Ko bj. I use the indexs that are in the book but find myself expanding the indexs when the count is high. I don't know if a player is really suppose to expand the indexs if they are not mentioned. I wouild suppose there is some advantage to expanding the indexs with regards to the key count, any thoughts? blackchipjim

 

[sagefr0g]

I wondering if anyone has an oppinion on the indexs for Ko bj. I use the indexs that are in the book but find myself expanding the indexs when the count is high. I don't know if a player is really suppose to expand the indexs if they are not mentioned. I wouild suppose there is some advantage to expanding the indexs with regards to the key count, any thoughts? blackchipjim

well i don't employ KO so it's hard for me to say. but i know that when i was just using Hi/Lo with straight basic strategy that there would often be counts for which certain card combinations would present that i 'sensed' that a deviation from basic strategy was called for. when i did learn the illustrious 18 it was apparent that many of those situations that i sensed did infact call for deviations that matched the illustrious 18. but then again some of the basic strategy departures are not so obvious.
so yeah i'd say expand the indexs but just be sure that they are the correct depatures for the given count as it relates to KO.

 

[ChefJJ]

well i don't employ KO so it's hard for me to say. but i know that when i was just using Hi/Lo with straight basic strategy that there would often be counts for which certain card combinations would present that i 'sensed' that a deviation from basic strategy was called for. when i did learn the illustrious 18 it was apparent that many of those situations that i sensed did infact call for deviations that matched the illustrious 18. but then again some of the basic strategy departures are not so obvious.
so yeah i'd say expand the indexs but just be sure that they are the correct depatures for the given count as it relates to KO.

As far as the Illustrious 18 go, KO Preferred employs pretty much those index plays...beyond that is beyond me.

good luck

 

[21forme]

I wondering if anyone has an oppinion on the indexs for Ko bj. I use the indexs that are in the book but find myself expanding the indexs when the count is high. I don't know if a player is really suppose to expand the indexs if they are not mentioned. I wouild suppose there is some advantage to expanding the indexs with regards to the key count, any thoughts? blackchipjim

I believe the whole point of KO was to simplify things. That's why there are fewer indices, at least for shoe games, where it very little impact on your EV, as compared with betting strategy. You'll note they use many more indices for 2 deck games where it's more important.

I use a modified KO, where I adjust the key count based on number of decks played. So I'm playing the indices more often than classic KO, but I rarely add any other index plays, such as those in the I-18 not included in columns A and B in the KO book.

 

[Mimosine]

you can just pick whatever hi/lo indicies you have laying around.

pick up splitting 10s for sure. for KO do it against 5 and 6 at KO RC =6, assuming standard IRCs. You can start doubling soft 19 v 5 or 6 a little bit higher than that. unless it is H17 then you should already doubling soft 19 v 6 like a good BS player.

 

[zengrifter]

KO do it against 5 and 6 at KO RC =6, assuming standard IRCs. You can start doubling soft 19 v 5 or 6 a little bit higher than that.

No, lower, I think (A8). And double A9 vs 5-6 at the same count as XX. zg

 

[aslan]

I wondering if anyone has an oppinion on the indexs for Ko bj. I use the indexs that are in the book but find myself expanding the indexs when the count is high. I don't know if a player is really suppose to expand the indexs if they are not mentioned. I wouild suppose there is some advantage to expanding the indexs with regards to the key count, any thoughts? blackchipjim

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/attachment.php?attachmentid=111&d=1179664255

This link will give you conversions from KO RC to True Count. Then, couldn't you use hi-lo indices? I'm a novice, but I think that would give you a full array of index plays based on true count.

 

[ChefJJ]

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/attachment.php?attachmentid=111&d=1179664255

This link will give you conversions from KO RC to True Count. Then, couldn't you use hi-lo indices? I'm a novice, but I think that would give you a full array of index plays based on true count.

Why bother making all of the conversions and such to KO, when you could just roll with an unbalanced count like HiLo and go with the flow? I'm just curious because I must be missing something in all this.

Somebody straighten me out! :whip:

 

[Canceler]

Somebody straighten me out! :whip:

For one thing, HiLo is a balanced count. But I know you know this.

Presumably they learned KO because of its simplicity, but now they want to make it complicated. Maybe they think all this is easier than teaching themselves to ignore the 7s.

What do they mean by "expanding the indexs" (sic)? Is that the same as using more of them?

 

[ChefJJ]

For one thing, HiLo is a balanced count. But I know you know this.

See...I needed more straightening out than I thought! I appreciate you giving me the benefit of the doubt with the typo.

Presumably they learned KO because of its simplicity, but now they want to make it complicated. Maybe they think all this is easier than teaching themselves to ignore the 7s.

I was thinking that was the case in all of this. If so, one might be better off in learning a BALANCED :grin: count like HiLo or something else than making conversions and such. I agree that KO's ease of use rests primarily in the fact that you don't have to convert RC to TC. On top of that, the authors have designed the system so that the shoe-game index plays are made at only 3 count points: KC, PP, & 1 below the PP.

I like to KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID...perhaps at a slight loss in advantage. But that's my 2 cents, which is worth less by the time you read this than when I posted it!

good luck

 

[aslan]

Why bother making all of the conversions and such to KO, when you could just roll with an unbalanced count like HiLo and go with the flow? I'm just curious because I must be missing something in all this.

Somebody straighten me out! :whip:

I don't bother with the conversions. I was just trying to be responsive to his question. For me, KO is perfect BECAUSE I don't have to make all the conversions. I'm going with the flow, bro!

 

[ChefJJ]

I don't bother with the conversions. I was just trying to be responsive to his question. For me, KO is perfect BECAUSE I don't have to make all the conversions. I'm going with the flow, bro!

I hear ya...but my answer was intended for the person asking the question as well, not a slam on you (or anybody for that matter)!

 

[aslan]

I hear ya...but my answer was intended for the person asking the question as well, not a slam on you (or anybody for that matter)!

Sorry if it seemed like I took it personally. I didn't. I always enjoy your posts. They are always level-headed and helpful. Absent body language, it sure is hard to make oneself understood--especially if one is part Italian in pedigree.:laugh: :cool2:

 

[ChefJJ]

Sorry if it seemed like I took it personally. I didn't. I always enjoy your posts. They are always level-headed and helpful. Absent body language, it sure is hard to make oneself understood--especially if one is part Italian in pedigree.:laugh: :cool2:

No sweat at all! I think most of us are all pretty easy going around here.

I will ask you a KO question then since you say that you use it...do you ever start to ease back on how much you are betting when the shoe is nearing the cut card (especially if pen is 75%)? For instance, if the count is telling you to bet 8 units in a 1-10 spread and the deck is winding down...do you ever bet a little less like say, 5 units?

The reason I ask is that it seems like the last hand (or two sometimes) before the shuffle isn't as great as it should be. And I'm not basing that purely on gut feelings, but somewhat on the way an unbalanced count may "over-hype" an advantage towards the end.

good luck

 

[aslan]

No sweat at all! I think most of us are all pretty easy going around here.

I will ask you a KO question then since you say that you use it...do you ever start to ease back on how much you are betting when the shoe is nearing the cut card (especially if pen is 75%)? For instance, if the count is telling you to bet 8 units in a 1-10 spread and the deck is winding down...do you ever bet a little less like say, 5 units?

The reason I ask is that it seems like the last hand (or two sometimes) before the shuffle isn't as great as it should be. And I'm not basing that purely on gut feelings, but somewhat on the way an unbalanced count may "over-hype" an advantage towards the end.

good luck

Yes. I'm betting $100 at say, +10, and having great success, but when I get near the yellow card, I cut back to say, $50. I don't know why. I've had so many experiences where I am winning big, only to lose it back the last two or three hands. I am thinking that maybe I am just paranoid, or fearful of losing ground, so it is good to hear your similar experience. I was about to make a resolve to never vary my bet from what is recommended in positive counts, but you have given me pause. I'd sure like to know if there is anything to it.

 

[Knox]

Of course there is something to it. Once you get past 50% of total cards dealt, KO starts to slowly but surely overstate your advantage. Just like misses some opportunities for profit early in the shoe. Take a look at the spreadsheet for converting to TC and you will see this is clear.

 

[blackchipjim]

ko indices

I know that tc conversion gives you a bit more accuracy but, I should clarify the question. In the book under c category you omit the the last of the plays for 6d and 8d which is what I was really asking. What would be the value for adding this plays or is there reason for omitting this plays. I would think that by adding this plays which I sometimes do would add to your ev. That is why I posed the question if anyone did a full sim on these values or am I missing something. I do appreciate all the answers to this thread and even oppinions too. blackchipjim

 

[aslan]

Of course there is something to it. Once you get past 50% of total cards dealt, KO starts to slowly but surely overstate your advantage. Just like misses some opportunities for profit early in the shoe. Take a look at the spreadsheet for converting to TC and you will see this is clear.

I believe you, but you would think it would be just the opposite--you know, the more knowledge you have about the composition of the remaining cards, the better you can assess your advantage.

Is there a simple rule of thumb you could apply instead of using true count, like when 50% of cards are gone subtract 2 from the running count. Maybe if I study the conversion chart, something like this will occur to me.

 

[Knox]

Aslan: The reason is that KO uses a fixed key count for simplicity. It is the AVERAGE count at where the player will always have an advantage through a 6D shoe. I think the 6D shoe is the best example to use. Only right at 3 decks dealt is the key count completely accurate. Otherwise, the authors have just chosen a nice conservative figure where you will have the advantage in the majority of the cases, especially early in the shoe, when you see an increase of 16 in the IRC.

What you want is about a +1 true count for the key count, which gives you an advantage worth betting more on. Again, as stated on the other thread on this subject, that is why I start the IRC at zero. Then at +9, there is an excess of +5 (RC should only increase +4 per deck) after one deck dealt which, when divided by 5 decks left = +1 true count. So in reality, the key count floats and is lower early on in the shoe. Again, the authors just fixed the key count for simplicity, while not sacrificing a lot of EV.

Conversely, after 4 decks dealt (as an example & still w/6D), a key count of +16 is not accurate. You'd be playing the equivalent of a DD game straight off the top. So KO is overstating your advantage late in the shoe on marginal + counts.

Worth noting: the pivot point of +24 (with IRC of 0) does not change or overstate your advantage at any point that I am aware of, even deep in the deck. Once I get that one 100% figured out, I may try to explain it too. However, the mathematics of the spreadsheet and the KO book seem to support that.

(i don't pretend to have all the answers):grin:

 

[ChefJJ]

I know that tc conversion gives you a bit more accuracy but, I should clarify the question. In the book under c category you omit the the last of the plays for 6d and 8d which is what I was really asking. What would be the value for adding this plays or is there reason for omitting this plays. I would think that by adding this plays which I sometimes do would add to your ev. That is why I posed the question if anyone did a full sim on these values or am I missing something. I do appreciate all the answers to this thread and even oppinions too. blackchipjim

I see your question now...and those "C" index plays are part of the 18, but not used for shoe games. I just always assumed that you don't use those in 6D or 8D because there's just too many cards to be hitting those types of hands regardless of the count. But I am curious to see what kind of math anyone is able to come up with to make those indices playable for KO in a shoe game.