KO system question.

[Mixolydian87]

Hello, has anyone ever seen this site?
(Dead link: http://www.blackjacksolutions.info/cardcounting.html)
or ordered the dvd from it?

The information from it seemed to be extremely helpful, he teaches the KO system, tells you about betting ramps, bank rolls index plays, I found it very useful.

But, after doing reading I learned that using the KO system for 6 decks you start the running count at -20 automatically... but he doesnt mention this.... His charts on 6 decks shoes only show where the warm spots and hot spots are for positive counts but never says to start on -20.

Has he already adjusted for this? and just made 0 the new -20?

I have included the chart to be specific..

Any help would be greatly appreciated, he doesn't answer his emails.

(Dead link: http://www.blackjacksolutions.info/charts/images-250/deck-6-01.jpg)
to the image of the chart I hope you can see it.

 

[Sonny]

That’s a pretty huge thing to leave out! Then again, it looks like he has modified the KO system so using an IRC might not be necessary in his version. It looks like he’s simplified the KO system, which is already incredibly simple. Withough knowing his system I can’t really help you with your question. I would stick to the original version since it is probably more effective. You can find the KO book for $10 at half.com. His DVD is $25 so you’re already saving money and learning a more effective system!

The image of the chart seems to be password protected.

-Sonny-

 

[callipygian]

I learned that using the KO system for 6 decks you start the running count at -20 automatically

(1) Welcome to the site. Are you a musician?

(2) You can start the running count wherever you want - 0, -20, or pi. It doesn't make a difference. The important thing to know is that the RC for the pivot is 4*decks above your starting count, and that the TC for the pivot in K-O is +4.

As a result, most people find it easiest to start the running count at -4*decks+4: 0 for single deck, -4 for double deck, -20 for six decks, and -28 for eight decks. This means that the running count of the pivot will match the true count of the pivot at +4.

However, if you count negative numbers poorly, you may want to consider other initial running counts. Starting at, say, +20, will pretty much insure you never have to dip into the negative running counts. However, on a six deck shoe, the running count of your pivot will be +44 (20 + 4*6).

You should decide what's easiest for you.

 

[Mixolydian87]

(1) Yes, I am a Music Theory Major.


(2) I have attached the image of the graph I was talking about, has he already adjusted for those -20 count for 6 decks thing?

 

[callipygian]

(1) Yes, I am a Music Theory Major.

I took a few music theory classes in college and recognized your name.

has he already adjusted for those -20 count for 6 decks thing?

No. He starts the running count at 0 and the pivot is +24 (which is why +24 is the dividing line between "warm" and "hot"). A running count of +24 in this case will ALWAYS correspond to a true count of +4.

Where you start the running count is sort of like which key you start a major scale on; the distance from the initial running count to the pivot is sort of like one octave. The definition of an octave doesn't change depending on what key you start on, and what is important is that you are able to determine when you have reached one octave, not when you've reached a particular key.

Edit: To stretch the analogy further, the true count is much like someone with perfect pitch. As someone with perfect pitch knows exactly where middle C is, so the pivot for K-O is defined at at true count of +4. This never changes. So most counters will start 12 half-notes below middle C out of convinience - so that when they reach one octave, their "middle C" matches with the perfect pitch guy's middle C. But you don't need to have perfect pitch to sing in tune - if you tell the perfect pitch guy that you're transposing the whole piece up a minor third and then tell everyone else that Eb is actually C, nobody's going to notice.

 

[Mixolydian87]

Idk about a true count of +4, or what that means.

This KO system eliminates the use for a true count so when you say that I don't know what you mean.

What I mean is, in the KO system it tells you to start a 6 deck shoe with a count of -20 and that the key count is -4.

He seems to start instead of -20 , at "0" so doesnt that mean the key count or warm spot would be 16 and not 9?


It seems like he is adjusting instead of keeping the counts in the negatives keeping them 0 and up, but I think the math is wrong? idk....

 

[callipygian]

Idk about a true count of +4, or what that means.

This KO system eliminates the use for a true count so when you say that I don't know what you mean.

The true count is the mathematical measure of your advantage; a true count of +4 corresponds to a +1.5% player edge over the house.

The KO system uses an unbalanced count to approximate the true count. How far KO deviates from the true count depends on how far from the pivot, or key count, the running count is. At the key count, the true count is always +4. The further you move from the key count, the worse the deviation is.

What I mean is, in the KO system it tells you to start a 6 deck shoe with a count of -20 and that the key count is -4.

He seems to start instead of -20 , at "0" so doesnt that mean the key count or warm spot would be 16 and not 9?

The key count should be +4, not -4, but you're essentially correct. If you start the running count at 0, your key count is +24. If you start the running count at -20, your key count is +4. If you start the running count at 56, your key count is +80. If you start the running count at +3500.75, your key count is +3524.75.

It doesn't matter where you start your running count, so long as you calculate your key count properly. It's always +24 from your starting count.

The reason why your key count is important is because that's where you're absolutely sure that you have a +1.5% advantage over the house. So whether your key count, or pivot, is +4, +24, or +80, you use that as a benchmark for making decisions.

Now, most people choose their initial running count so that the true count and running counts match at the pivot. It's the least confusing system for people who are familiar with Hi-Lo (which tracks the true count) and KO (which doesn't). But if you're unfamiliar with Hi-Lo, you need to recognize there's nothing special about the initial running count. Just remember that your key count = initial count + 24, and that at the key count, your edge is +1.5% over the house.

 

[Mixolydian87]

Some where the math seems to be off.
I found this on a website about the KO system.
http://www.koblackjack.com/K-O_Rookie_System.html (Archive copy)
Conditions IRC Key Count
1 deck 0 +2
2 decks -4 +1
6 decks -20 -4
8 decks -28 -6

In the graphs I have from this author, for the first deck, it is indeed true, starting at 0 +2 is the warm spot. As you can see below.

But for 2 decks he has his warm spot at +4 when starting from "0" but the above table shows a spread from the initial count to the warm count as being 5. So I thought the warm should start at +5 on this graph if he is adjusting to keep these out of the negatives.

Same with 6 deck shoe, starting -20 to the warm -4 is a spread of 16, so it only makes sense that starting at "0" as the above graph does the warm area should be 16... and not 9.

see why I'm confused >< I just want to make sure I am correct about these warm spots.

Unless this table
Conditions IRC Key Count
1 deck 0 +2
2 decks -4 +1
6 decks -20 -4
8 decks -28 -6
from this site
http://www.koblackjack.com/K-O_Rookie_System.html (Archive copy)
is wrong which it very likely can be, I just fear I might be raising my bets at the wrong time.....

 

[Mixolydian87]

I have not been able to pick up that books so idk if

Single Card K-O Value Running Count
3 +1 +1
5 +1 +2
King - 1 +1
2 +1 +2
8 0 +2
Queen -1 +1

is accurate or not.

 

[callipygian]

I found this on a website about the KO system.
http://www.koblackjack.com/K-O_Rookie_System.html (Archive copy)

I see the problem here - he's defined the key count as "the count at which the player first has the advantage" which is different from the pivot (the count at which the player has a 1.5% advantage).

Sorry; I just assumed "key count" meant "pivot".

But for 2 decks he has his warm spot at +4 when starting from "0" but the above table shows a spread from the initial count to the warm count as being 5. So I thought the warm should start at +5 on this graph if he is adjusting to keep these out of the negatives.

Same with 6 deck shoe, starting -20 to the warm -4 is a spread of 16, so it only makes sense that starting at "0" as the above graph does the warm area should be 16... and not 9.

This is correct. So for a double deck game, the "key count" (where the deck gets warm) is your initial running count +5, and the pivot (where the deck gets hot) is your initial running count +8 ... no matter what your initial running count is. For a 6-deck shoe, the key count is your IRC +16, and your pivot is IRC +24.

Single Card K-O Value Running Count
3 +1 +1
5 +1 +2
King - 1 +1
2 +1 +2
8 0 +2
Queen -1 +1

That is correct.

 

[Mixolydian87]

wow, I still dont understand what you said . Are the above picture graphs with the colors of warm and hot wrong or not?

So for a double deck game, the "key count" (where the deck gets warm) is your initial running count +5, and the pivot (where the deck gets hot) is your initial running count +8

So then the below picture graph that says the warm is +4 is wrong?

 

[Mixolydian87]

?><

 

[callipygian]

Are the above picture graphs with the colors of warm and hot wrong or not?

The picture graphs shown are perfectly fine so long as you start your initial running count at zero.

Just note that most people don't start at zero, so don't confuse different websites.

There's an absolute scale (true count) and a relative scale (running count).

 

[Mixolydian87]

Thanks for the info.

I'm sorry for the question just that I see the math is off and I want to be sure I am actually betting in the warm spots.

Thanks

 

[callipygian]

No problem.

I would recommend learning a little more before you head out to the casino. A successful card counter doesn't just have to be sure he's playing with an advantage, he needs to be absolutely positive.

It's very probable that your first session will be a losing one. There's a good chance your first 5 will all be losing. There's a small chance your first 20 will all be losing. You may very well be playing with an advantage, but still lose money in the short term. If you're not absolutely positive that you're doing it right, you'll probably quit before you see "the long term".

 

[Mixolydian87]

Yeah I keep practicing, but it can be disapointing, Im trying this program and just jumping in with the counts high playing perfect BS and adjusting play for high count, not seeing too much.

Its a pretty good program though, it tells you when your playing BS wrong you can change all the rules, like number of decks, and you can count cards on it, its not randomized all the cards are there, although I play it with 70% pen.

 

[ChefJJ]

Thanks for the info.

I'm sorry for the question just that I see the math is off and I want to be sure I am actually betting in the warm spots.

Thanks

Mix, I highly recommend reading and re-reading the book. It doesn't take long to read, so do it twice :grin: In fact, I re-read a couple sections in it several times in the course of a week to absolutely grasp the reason why the system works.

As far as that website goes with the charts and all, that's nice, but why not just go straight to the source? Then, you'll probably be able to understand the system...which will allow you to customize it just like that website did. For instance, I begin my counts (IRC) so that the key count (I like to call it the Turning Point) is zero. That way, anything not a negative is where I want to get in. I've digressed from my suggestion: get the book. If you're serious about this, you won't regret it.

good luck

 

[Mixolydian87]

For instance, I begin my counts (IRC) so that the key count (I like to call it the Turning Point) is zero. That way, anything not a negative is where I want to get in.
good luck

Thats a good idea, but then again that brings me to another question.

According to those graphs the key count or "warm spot" seems to change with the level in which you cut into the shoe, if you always keep your pivot point at 0, at some point wont you be betting into a cold deck?

 

[ChefJJ]

Thats a good idea, but then again that brings me to another question.

According to those graphs the key count or "warm spot" seems to change with the level in which you cut into the shoe, if you always keep your pivot point at 0, at some point wont you be betting into a cold deck?

I probably shouldn't have brought up my twist on the system since you aren't really familiar with KO, but you are right in a way. My KC of 0 is in a play-all situation, but that does change when not playing through the entire shoe. There was a good table floating around here that adjusted your entry (wong in) point depending on how deep into the shoe you are, and that is important.

 

[Mixolydian87]

Any chance on linking it ?