Level 2 counts...help!

[aslan]

To masters of level 2 (and above) counts:

Please share some tips of the trade. Do you just "see" what the count is, or do you actually add up and down? Do you "visualize" (see a picture of) the count, or is it more of a mechanical process? How do you add by twos? Is it by rote (m3, m5, m7, m5, etc). Or do you say, "m3, m4, m5, m6, m7, m6, m5?" I am using software to practice but it is not easy to get started? Should I just keep at it and eventually it will come? Thank you in advance for any suggestions you may have.

 

[Kasi]

To masters of level 2 (and above) counts:

Please share some tips of the trade. Do you just "see" what the count is, or do you actually add up and down? Do you "visualize" (see a picture of) the count, or is it more of a mechanical process? How do you add by twos? Is it by rote (m3, m5, m7, m5, etc). Or do you say, "m3, m4, m5, m6, m7, m6, m5?" I am using software to practice but it is not easy to get started? Should I just keep at it and eventually it will come? Thank you in advance for any suggestions you may have.

First, ask urself how much is it really going to matter.

It'll come to u - I've always pretty much waited to see 2 cards and then change my count. When I experimented with level 2 counts, I got used to the value of various pairs.

With level 1 counts, it's amazing how often 2 cards add up to zero. It's so easy to count the cards as they are dealt that way and not wait until all hands are dealt and then count each player's 2-card hand.

And if u lose the count as the cards are being dealt it's really not hard to count the hands after they have been dealt. Kind of like a back-up system lol.

With level 2 counts, a little more work. But u'll get it.

Why u want to, I don't know lol.

 

[aslan]

First, ask urself how much is it really going to matter.

Why u want to, I don't know lol.

Because it's a little more accurate, and will help me bet more correctly and wong out more accurately. Is it not worth the effort in your opinion? I'm using KO currently, and having success. I have won most sessions, but am only slightly ahead dollarwise.

 

[Kasi]

Because it's a little more accurate, and will help me bet more correctly and wong out more accurately. Is it not worth the effort in your opinion? I'm using KO currently, and having success. I have won most sessions, but am only slightly ahead dollarwise.

Hey - I don't really know. If the extra $win/hr and extra effort is worth it to u, then great.

Maybe ur win rate might increase alot on a percentage basis but not much in dollars. I don't know.

Guess all I'm saying is find out how much things will change for what game u play, how u play it to what bankroll etc.

As in, I suppose, buy a sim or something.

If it were to turn out that u make $52/hr instead of $50/hr, would u really care that after a thousand hours, u had $52K instead of only $50K?

Just how much more are u expecting to make?

Heck, I even learned the Uston level 3 count. The only thing I use it for is to look like a genius at a party when, alot of the time, I can "predict" the last card

I'm sure others may have a more informed opinion.

 

[moo321]

There are other things that would be more +EV than learning a level 2 count. Learning extra indeces would be the main thing.

 

[aslan]

Kasi--Moo--

All points well taken. Thanks for your response.

 

[21forme]

In my opinion, the extra potential EV of a level 2 count is offset by the compromises necessary to avoid heat, anyway. So why bother?

For example, if your KO count jumps from key to pivot in one round, are you going to jump your bet from 2U to 10U?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

There are other things that would be more +EV than learning a level 2 count. Learning extra indeces would be the main thing.

Depends. Not in a shoe game, because the extra indices are mostly all negative indices and you're not going to be playing negative counts in shoe games anyway.

Going from level 1 to level 2 increases the win rate by 5-10%, and that is about as much as you are going to get by tweaking the count itself.

 

[Sonny]

Do you just "see" what the count is, or do you actually add up and down?

I do it like Kasi does. I try to count by two cards whenever possible. This allows you to avoid a lot of the up/down/up/down rollercoaster ride. I was always having a problem when the count would hover around zero. I would end up going “+1, 0, -1, 0, -1, 0, +1…wait did I end at +1 or –1?” Counting multiple cards will help you to avoid this by making bigger jumps as well as canceling most of the cards out so you can ignore most of the cards on the table. Being able to "see" the count is much faster and easier than having to calculate the count.

Do you "visualize" (see a picture of) the count, or is it more of a mechanical process?

During play it is more of a mechanical process for me, but between rounds I will visualize it. I used to have trouble between rounds when I was calculating the TC, calculating my bet, reverting to RC and chatting with the other people. There were so many times that the count just escaped from my head. I found that having an image of the count in your head makes it easier to keep in your memory. An image is much more permanent than a piece of information. Even if you forget the count you still remember the image so you can get it back.

You can also use different colors to help you count. I always think of positive counts as being red (hot) and negative counts being blue (cold). When the RC gets pretty high I start to see flames on the number, or when it's really low I see it as a transparent piece of sparkling ice. I've never reversed the count since then.

How do you add by twos?

Just jump to the next odd/even number. Most people don’t have any problem thinking “2, 4, 6, 8, 10” or “1, 3, 5, 7, 9”. Now you just have to learn how to do it backwards.

Is it not worth the effort in your opinion?

That’s a tough question. If card counting is going to be your main weapon then it makes sense to use the strongest system you can. If you plan on branching out to other techniques then you’ll want to keep your counting very simple.

-Sonny-

 

[Renzey]

To masters of level 2 (and above) counts:

Please share some tips of the trade. How do you add by twos? Is it by rote (m3, m5, m7, m5, etc). Or do you say, "m3, m4, m5, m6, m7, m6, m5?"

When crossing over the "0" mark from positive to negative, I recommend not using "2, 1, zero, m1, m2", etc. Instead, I feel it's much easier to say and keep track of, "2, 1, zip, 99, 98", etc. In that way, you never have to say a negative number, and you'll never wonder whether the count at the end of the last round, just before the tray fill, or hand dispute, or buy-in, etc. was +2 or -2. Simplify, simplify, simplify!

 

[boneuphtoner]

I like the Renzey Method

One tactic that Fred Renzey mentioned in BlueBook II that I personally use is the use of a balanced counting system starting with a running count of "100"....for a +4 running count, it would be "104" but you would simply state "4" in your mind....where this really becomes advantageous is when you get into negative counts. A -4 running count becomes "96". I find this is much easier than dealing with negative numbers. You just have to remember that a running count of "90" translates into "-10" and use that to convert to your true count. This is found under Fred's explanation of his level 2 balanced Count, the Mentor Count.

 

[blackjack avenger]

On higher level counts

If using a higher level count you have a shorter time horizon. It is not just more dollars per hour but less time in getting to the long run. I have never heard this concept in the great "which count" debates.

When learning higher counts it will take some time because it is a little more difficult. If you look to cancel it will help a lot.

 

[Sonny]

If using a higher level count you have a shorter time horizon. It is not just more dollars per hour but less time in getting to the long run. I have never heard this concept in the great "which count" debates.

The time it takes to get to the long run is more related to the betting strategy, not the counting strategy. You can often decrease your N0 by adjusting your bet spread using the same system. Similarly, using a more complex system will not necessarily reduce your N0 unless your betting spread is set up to do so. It would be very easy to set up a level 2 system with a much higher N0 than a level 1 system.

-Sonny-

 

[Knox]

I think I would rather be hung by my toenails than have to assign different point values to cards. Most of the gain from counting cards is in the bet spread anyway. I'd rather eke out an extra 10 Bp EV by adding additional indices to KO, but that's just me.

 

[jack.jackson]

??

I was just wondering, because ive been researching and studying human dexterity for a couple years now. Sooner or later im gonna start a thread about the subject.
But i was just wondering if im alone here? Do some of you actually count from top to bottom? Do some atually see the negative count on the right?

For i thought this way was common practice. -3-1-1+1+2+4

 

[blackjack avenger]

We agree

The time it takes to get to the long run is more related to the betting strategy, not the counting strategy. You can often decrease your N0 by adjusting your bet spread using the same system. Similarly, using a more complex system will not necessarily reduce your N0 unless your betting spread is set up to do so. It would be very easy to set up a level 2 system with a much higher N0 than a level 1 system.

-Sonny-

I agree with you. However, the opposite of your view is also true. If you set up the same spread the higher level counts should have a lower NO most of the time. I was referring to different level counts, not spread. Yes, incresing spread can lower NO but not always advisable. A higher level count is a more subtle way to lower NO.

 

[eps6724]

I was just wondering, because ive been researching and studying human dexterity for a couple years now. Sooner or later im gonna start a thread about the subject.
But i was just wondering if im alone here? Do some of you actually count from top to bottom? Do some atually see the negative count on the right?

For i thought this way was common practice. -3-1-1+1+2+4

If I understand your question, I see from right to left (in my mind) with the negs on the right.

 

[aslan]

If I understand your question, I see from right to left (in my mind) with the negs on the right.

Funny. I see the negatives going down, and likewise the positives are going up (vertically). Sort of like a thermometer. Sometimes I see the positives going up and to the right, as if climbing a hill. Interesting how we picture things differently. BTW, I am lefthanded, which may account for horizontal direction.

 

[jack.jackson]

Funny. I see the negatives going down, and likewise the positives are going up (vertically). Sort of like a thermometer. Sometimes I see the positives going up and to the right, as if climbing a hill. Interesting how we picture things differently. BTW, I am lefthanded, which may account for horizontal direction.

Im left handed as well but never dreamed of visualizing it in a vertical image. Its also just as unorthodox for me to see the negatives on the right.

From a lefty to a lefty, do you:

1 shoot pool left or right handed l or R

2 write L or R

3 throw L or R

4 punch (jab rh) L or R

5 Riffle, left shoulder or right shoulder

6 Bow(archer) draw left or right

7 Jump left foot or right foot

8 Bat L or R

 

[moo321]

I'm right handed, but I always played hockey left-handed.