Looking for graphs for face-down vs face-up

[jack.jackson]

Anybody know where I can find graphs/charts/effects for the differences between the # of players vs face-down vs face-up, games, and how much more important the BC becomes as the number of players increases in face-down games?

 

[QFIT]

Not sure I understand what you want. It's the number of players to your right that matters - not total number of players. And its PE, not BC, that matters. See http://www.blackjackincolor.com/penetration10.htm

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[jack.jackson]

Not sure I understand what you want. It's the number of players to your right that matters - not total number of players. And its PE, not BC, that matters. See http://www.blackjackincolor.com/penetration10.htm

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Hello and Thankyou for the response Q.

About your chart. Unless Im mistaken, this charts shows the differences in EV for the third-base player vs the first-base player. I can only assume this is ONLY true, regardless wether or not, its face-up or face-down. I would also assume the deeper the penetration, the more apparent the discrepency becomes.

It would be interesting to see four different graphs.

1.Face-up: 1st base vs 3rd base, 6 players vs 3 players.

vs.

2. Face-down: 1st base vs 3rd base, 6 players vs 3 players.

I guess what I'm trying to determine(ask) is, that would a player sitting at first base, w/3 other players have more playing accuracy, in a 2D face-up game, opposed to a player sitting at 3rd base in a face-down game?

Couldnt it be possible that a system with a higher PE(but lower BC) would outperform another system in a 2D face-down game, based solely on the # of players at the table? (Regardless of sitting position)

I mean, as the number of players Increase, in face-down games, the LESS effective your playing accuracy becomes(correct?). And the less effective your playing accuracy becomes, that eventually the system w/ the higher BC would start to overtake the other system w/the higher PE as the # of players Increase?(Depending on the system of course)

But if you had two different systems already close in nature. One could possibly outperform the other, based SOLELY on the # of players. I think....lol

What? Say that again......lol

Im sorry if you cant understand what Im asking.....Because Im having a hard time, trying to explain, what it is, Im asking.


PS. I really enjoyed your analysis on AG11.

 

[QFIT]

A few things.

1. Face down games are nearly always pitch games. In pitch games, the bet spread is lower. With a low bet spread it is very difficult for the betting correlation to become more important than PE.

2. The only game where unseen cards on the table are going to have a significant effect on SCORE is single deck. In single deck, there are enormous other effects related to the number of players. Those effects would hide any effect from unseen cards.

3. If you really want to make up for the loss in accuracy; for every pat hand to your right; temporarily subtract -1 from the RC and for every unbusted hand, add 1.

 

[shadroch]

Not to derail this thread,but is it possible to compare the differences in a face up vs facedown DD game,all rules being equal?

 

[QFIT]

Could be interesting. With enough players there is certainly a gain in Insurance bets with face up. DD face up is rare but does exist. I'll look at it when I have some time.

 

[Doofus]

DD face up is rare but does exist.

The Mirage and TI have it.

 

[shadroch]

Its in several downtown casinos,as well.

 

[jack.jackson]

Whos to say?

I would just like to add a final note. As long as your playing heads-up, the nature of face-down vs face-up is irrelevant, because all cards are seen; and unless im mistaken, by adding one player to a face down game, would have the biggest impact. Each player after that, would show to have less and less of a impact on playing accuracy.

However, if I was to walk into a casino and have the option between 2 double deck games w/the same rules,4players, and same pen, but ones face-up, and the other is face down. More than likely, I would use my ace-sidecount strategy for the face-up, but use my ace-reckoned strategy(Zen) for the face-down.

 

[davidpom]

face up blackjack

The wizard of odds site is normally a good one for specific game data and graphs: (Dead link: http://www.thewizardofodds.com)

Be aware that face up blackjack (double exposure of both dealer cards) normally has a 9% edge attached - as the house takes all ties. That's 18 times higher than a standard 0.5% face down (one card up) game.

Only HIGHLY SKILLED card counters should consider double exposure blackjack - and even then, proceed with caution!

 

[jack.jackson]

The wizard of odds site is normally a good one for specific game data and graphs: (Dead link: http://www.thewizardofodds.com)

Be aware that face up blackjack (double exposure of both dealer cards) normally has a 9% edge attached - as the house takes all ties. That's 18 times higher than a standard 0.5% face down (one card up) game.

Only HIGHLY SKILLED card counters should consider double exposure blackjack - and even then, proceed with caution!

Does Double exposure come in both, face-up and face-down modes. (9%?) That seems impossible? But thank you!

 

[shadroch]

When we refer to face up/face down,we are talking about the players cards,not the dealers. Regular BJ,not double exposure.

 

[QFIT]

Be aware that face up blackjack (double exposure of both dealer cards) normally has a 9% edge attached - as the house takes all ties. That's 18 times higher than a standard 0.5% face down (one card up) game.

Only if you ignore one of the cards The house edge of zweikartenspiel is about .5%-1.5%.

In any case, that's not what is meant by dealing face up as shadroch said.

 

[davidpom]

Only if you ignore one of the cards The house edge of zweikartenspiel is about .5%-1.5%.

In any case, that's not what is meant by dealing face up as shadroch said.

Sounds like I or others have misinterpreted. If we're not talking about the same game (where the two dealer cards are dealt FACE UP so that the player can see both cards before they decide what to do with their hand (which also has two cards dealt face up) - this game was offered at Lady Luck casino in downtown Las Vegas when it was open - then any comparisons are likely to be wrong.

My understanding of this "dealer takes ties" blackjack style was that the house edge was up to 9%. It's sometimes called "charity blackjack". I can't believe it's only 1.5% - that seems WAY too low to me given that rule.

 

[QFIT]

Sounds like I or others have misinterpreted. If we're not talking about the same game (where the two dealer cards are dealt FACE UP so that the player can see both cards before they decide what to do with their hand (which also has two cards dealt face up) - this game was offered at Lady Luck casino in downtown Las Vegas when it was open - then any comparisons are likely to be wrong.

My understanding of this "dealer takes ties" blackjack style was that the house edge was up to 9%. It's sometimes called "charity blackjack". I can't believe it's only 1.5% - that seems WAY too low to me given that rule.

It also pays 1:1 on most BJs and there are other differences. But you get to see both cards. That rule alone at single deck w/o insurance is 10% in your favor.

 

[jack.jackson]

Just Wondering if you had gotten a chance to take a look into this Norm? Tx