Mike Aponte to Teach Casinos How to Catch Counters

[RJT]

only other comment is why do the same guys show up over here in relation to MIT team news to promote or defend the intentions of the others? you guys are welcome anytime!

Perhaps it was a favour - but i think it more likely that it was a responce to what is plainly an inflamitory post by ZG whether intended as information or nest kicking. As i said, i'm a little gutted to see Mike offering his services to the industry - who more dangerous to turn catcher than one of the most successful at playing the game - but this was always going to receive a negative reaction from the online community.
I'm afraid i turn up for these sorts of topics as they are one of the few things that interest me these days. Mike's done some pretty big favours for me in the past that have provided some amazing experiences and opportunites, so i do feel a certain loyalty. That alone would make me check out a thread with the above subject line.
Counting et al is slightly off my radar atm. I'm still well involved in my AP, but the weakness i'm exploiting atm is a little off the beaten path for this board and is taking almost all my free time - so i don't have a lot spare to post here anymore.

RJT.

 

[zengrifter]

Of course you didn't - the first of the two quotes above certainly doesn't try to paint Mike in a negative light, but i do wonder what relevance the second quote has to this conversation what-so-ever?

I double checked and I couldn't find any inflamatory statement or question that I
placed or initiated this thread with... other than the actual subject, of course. zg

 

[zengrifter]

If you want to play word games, go play them with someone who has more time and enthusiasm to help you increase your post count. Your intent was fairly obvious and plain for all to see.

You are noticeably upset by this troubling news. zg

 

[mdlbj]

He is one of the greats yet, Im sure there is something going on here that is not being spoke about. I will find out what and let you all know.

You know I really didn't want to weigh in on this when I first saw it do to my relationship with Mike. I will also admit it disturbs me that he has chosen no boundaries on who he trains or seems to worry about consequence of it.

That being said he is far from a sad case as some others have suggested. On the contrary he is quite successful as a whole and needs no sympathy or pity thrown his way, he was a very successful BJ player that became a very successful businessman. Its unfortunate that his business success is in direct conflict of the roots in which he started and to those that are still connected with it.

As far as his knowledge and understanding of the game it is equaled only by the very best in the world. And as far as practical application of it there are but a few that can match it. Wong with all his knowledge can't touch Mike as far as actual playing, nor can Schlesinger, nor Blaine, and most big names for that matter. Yes their are a few that can such as Grosjean and Mikes mentor John Chang, but make no mistake he knows all there is to know on how to win at this game as well as being able to pull it off. There in lies the problem, I won't lie, my relationship with Mike has been strained, but that does not make him any less of a player.

 

[mdlbj]

Here is Mike Aponte's response.

" Ironically, this will actually be a good thing for card counters. My target market is Indian casinos. At the World Game Protection Conference, they were only a few Vegas casinos represented. The vast majority of representatives were from Indian casinos and these were the guys that approached me about learning more about card counting. There are more than 300 Indian casinos in the country, and the vast majority of them offer bad to horrible games.

Why do casinos offer bad games?

1) A lack of understanding about the mathematics of gaming
2) An overblown fear of card counters stemming from a lack of knowledge

During the World Game Protection Conference, the surveillance director of one of the largest Indian casinos in the country asked me if the running count alone was enough to accurately evaluate a card counter. I was surprised to say the least. Sound like this casino would be a great place to count cards? Wrong. They hit soft 17 and have a 2-deck cut card. The reason many casinos offer poor games is that they're afraid that card counters are going to bankrupt them. This is of course ridiculous given that 99.99% of
blackjack players have no shot at beating the house. But, due to fear and a lack of knowledge casinos unknowingly cost themselves money by instituting extreme countermeasures against card counters. For example, if the cut card is at 2 decks, the casino is shuffling more often at every table, 24/7, 365 days a year. When the dealer is shuffling, the casino is not making money. What many casinos don't realize is that the rules & conditions that are good for card counters are even better for casinos.

At a training I did a month ago, one of the things I told them was that if I ran a casino I would offer great rules and I would place the cut card at 1/2 a deck. Why? To maximize betting volume and profit. I would market to the public that my casino has the best rules you'll find anywhere. How many players would actually take advantage of the rules? As you know, very few. A 1/2 deck cut card would maximize the number of rounds dealt per hour and consequently, table game revenue. In helping casinos become more knowledgeable about the mathematics of gaming and the reality of card counting, they will see that it’s in their best interest to offer games which happen to be favorable for advantage players. And that's a good thing, especially given the spread of Hit Soft 17, poor penetration, & 6/5 blackjack. "

I knew he was not going to the darkside.

 

[bjcount]

Here is Mike Aponte's response.
For example, if the cut card is at 2 decks, the casino is shuffling more often at every table, 24/7, 365 days a year. When the dealer is shuffling, the casino is not making money. What many casinos don't realize is that the rules & conditions that are good for card counters are even better for casinos.

At a training I did a month ago, one of the things I told them was that if I ran a casino I would offer great rules and I would place the cut card at 1/2 a deck. Why? To maximize betting volume and profit. I would market to the public that my casino has the best rules you'll find anywhere. How many players would actually take advantage of the rules? As you know, very few. A 1/2 deck cut card would maximize the number of rounds dealt per hour and consequently, table game revenue. In helping casinos become more knowledgeable about the mathematics of gaming and the reality of card counting, they will see that it’s in their best interest to offer games which happen to be favorable for advantage players. And that's a good thing, especially given the spread of Hit Soft 17, poor penetration, & 6/5 blackjack. "

I knew he was not going to the darkside.

Sounds like something straight out of Zender's "Casino-ology". Let's hope it works.

BJC

by the way that example has nothing to do with the OP (catching counters) :grin:, that's an example to show the store where they're giving up potential revenue. May the force be with us.

 

[daddybo]

It's very true... I hope he is sincere...

 

[ihate17]

Enter the ASM

Here is Mike Aponte's response.

" Ironically, this will actually be a good thing for card counters. My target market is Indian casinos. At the World Game Protection Conference, they were only a few Vegas casinos represented. The vast majority of representatives were from Indian casinos and these were the guys that approached me about learning more about card counting. There are more than 300 Indian casinos in the country, and the vast majority of them offer bad to horrible games.

Why do casinos offer bad games?

1) A lack of understanding about the mathematics of gaming
2) An overblown fear of card counters stemming from a lack of knowledge

During the World Game Protection Conference, the surveillance director of one of the largest Indian casinos in the country asked me if the running count alone was enough to accurately evaluate a card counter. I was surprised to say the least. Sound like this casino would be a great place to count cards? Wrong. They hit soft 17 and have a 2-deck cut card. The reason many casinos offer poor games is that they're afraid that card counters are going to bankrupt them. This is of course ridiculous given that 99.99% of
blackjack players have no shot at beating the house. But, due to fear and a lack of knowledge casinos unknowingly cost themselves money by instituting extreme countermeasures against card counters. For example, if the cut card is at 2 decks, the casino is shuffling more often at every table, 24/7, 365 days a year. When the dealer is shuffling, the casino is not making money. What many casinos don't realize is that the rules & conditions that are good for card counters are even better for casinos.

At a training I did a month ago, one of the things I told them was that if I ran a casino I would offer great rules and I would place the cut card at 1/2 a deck. Why? To maximize betting volume and profit. I would market to the public that my casino has the best rules you'll find anywhere. How many players would actually take advantage of the rules? As you know, very few. A 1/2 deck cut card would maximize the number of rounds dealt per hour and consequently, table game revenue. In helping casinos become more knowledgeable about the mathematics of gaming and the reality of card counting, they will see that it’s in their best interest to offer games which happen to be favorable for advantage players. And that's a good thing, especially given the spread of Hit Soft 17, poor penetration, & 6/5 blackjack. "

I knew he was not going to the darkside.

I do not buy the Zenderesque arguement. The casino exec can have it all!
The greedy, but not so dumb, casino exec of an Indian casino will probably listen to everything Mike has to say on this subject and then go out and purchase ASM's to eliminate the loss of income due to shuffling too often. He will also recognize that his not so smart players know little about the difference between S and H on soft 17 and since he has the ASM's, keep pen at two decks cut off. Why should he offer better games? He has enough players now and the ASM will not only let him deal more hands than presently but even more than better pen with a hand shuffle would allow him to deal.

ihate17

 

[SystemsTrader]

There are more than 300 Indian casinos in the country, and the vast majority of them offer bad to horrible games.

In my travels through the US and Canada, I've found the native indians to actually provide the best games for both rules and pen. I've seen some horrible games too, but I've also seen outstanding games with no heat.

 

[zengrifter]

He is one of the greats yet, Im sure there is something going on here that is not being spoke about. I will find out what and let you all know.

Okay, good - BJINFO now has its best BJ Institute mole on it! zg

 

[zengrifter]

Based on Aponte's response, he is FREQUENTLY teaching casino staff. zg

 

[Tarzan]

Indian Casinos

The rules can vary greatly at the Native American casinos but you can encounter some great rules and playing conditions at a few of them! I have! You can also see the absolute worst of rules and playing conditions. There is no "even keel" like they have in Atlantic City in which all the casinos do the same thing and follow suit with each other...if one does it they ALL do it.

You can shop around at the Indian casinos for a decent game. Is Mike Aponte going to make the Indian casinos just as bad as the AC and Vegas casinos or is he taking more of a Bill Zender approach in making the casinos aware of their stupid practices in game protection that cost them money? I have to agree with the statement regarding him taking full advantage of his notoriety for maximum financial gain... it is human nature for greed to override common sense or moral responsibility.

 

[callipygian]

I think the blanket assumption that Aponte has gone to The Dark Side and the whitewashing of his scripted, cookie cutter response are equally silly.

Let's face it - if you (nonspecific "you" meant for whoever is reading this) were offered 50 years of blackjack earnings to divulge your secrets to the casino, you'd probably do it. And if you were recognized and banned from most casinos in the country, you'd have even more incentive to do it. So nobody should get all high and mighty just because Aponte is a capitalist. You're not "brothers" with him. You have no stake in his well-being, nor does he have stake in yours. Is it wrong for musical artists to sell their image to sell tampons and baseball stadiums to shill for their sponsors? That's an age-old debate.

Is it possible for Aponte to be selling the casinos old secrets and secretly making games better for counters? Absolutely. Is it possible for Aponte to be lying through his teeth to maintain some "street cred" while totally whoring himself out to the highest bidder? Absolutely. Does it really matter whether he's a hero or a villain? NO.

Get rid of this romanticized notion of the All American Hero. Your baseball heroes take steroids. Your political heroes sleep around. Your blackjack heroes sell their secrets to publishers and casino execs for profit. Mike Aponte is a great player who contributed a lot to the field of blackjack, and he can do whatever he wants with his life.

 

[creeping panther]

Hmmmm

The "Dream Shoe" casino offers a game just like what Mike spoke of.....one hell of a game. They also offer LS and I seem to be the only one of a very few that use it.

There is actually a move away from expensive and troublsome shuffle machines and players would rather have a hand shuffle, time for breaks etc.

The best thing is to have competition among casinos and smart enough players who will not do 6.5 or 8 deck hit 17.

Pro's like the very advanced RJT and Bojack do have much to fear from this development...I am just careful to have another life, like my motorcycling and VP and some other things that can keep my interest if BJ does go South.

I wonder how many other "Greats" are thinking they better move quick to the casino side since Aponte has already done it???:yikes:

Rather funny though, the Baddest Ass BJ player in the world jumps in bed with the casinos:laugh::laugh:

I said early on the movie "21" was Bad News.

CP

 

[mdlbj]

Keep reading the text books and loosing your money.. Bye.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Well my point is what you were a little subjective when stating that Mike is knows about the game more than anyone who posts on these forums. It is a rather hasty generalization. Mike is a really good player but i think there are people who have a better deeper understanding of the game. Many of them are members of these forums.

Excellent point. We have men in their 60's here who have been playing since they were legally able to enter a casino.

Then there is that well-known relationship between talking and doing, in that those who do the most tend to talk the least about it. Not to be rude, but anybody can be anybody on the internet, and all I know for a fact about this crowd is that they have a lot of stories to tell, and expensive but ambiguous products to sell. I'm not saying it is all BS, but if it was, how would you know?

 

[Katweezel]

Loosely speaking

You all are retarded. Keep reading the text books and loosing your money.. Bye.

Was this a loose statement, or was he just being loose, or did he lose?

 

[creeping panther]

Mdlbj

You all are retarded. Keep reading the text books and loosing your money.. Bye.

Got news for you buddy, I have NEVER been one to be lead about by the nose by any BJ author but have always had a very strong tendency to think for myself.

You think you are an original.....:laugh:

CP

 

[creeping panther]

Am

Excellent point. We have men in their 60's here who have been playing since they were legally able to enter a casino.

Then there is that well-known relationship between talking and doing, in that those who do the most tend to talk the least about it. Not to be rude, but anybody can be anybody on the internet, and all I know for a fact about this crowd is that they have a lot of stories to tell, and expensive but ambiguous products to sell. I'm not saying it is all BS, but if it was, how would you know?

"Anybody can be anybody on the Internet", correct statement, until they show up for the "BJ BASH", then the rubber meets the road. Maybe that is wht so few, percentage wise, of posters have attended.:laugh:

CP

 

[MAZ]

Excellent point. We have men in their 60's here who have been playing since they were legally able to enter a casino.

Yeah sure, so as long as your a senior citizen you're an expert. Real intelligent way of analyzing expertise, but then again, unless its a pie eating contest I believe you're out of your realm of ability to judge competence vs greatness.

Then there is that well-known relationship between talking and doing, in that those who do the most tend to talk the least about it. Not to be rude, but anybody can be anybody on the internet, and all I know for a fact about this crowd is that they have a lot of stories to tell, and expensive but ambiguous products to sell. I'm not saying it is all BS, but if it was, how would you know?[/

With over 3500 posts I would have to believe you are the perfect example of your point. I equate your thought here with the overly jealous boyfriend who gets that way do to his own infidelity. The belief being if I'm doing it then I'm sure the other is as well. You are a classic case of your own bullshit.