moral quandry

[E-town-guy]

1) Is this accounting error is just a nice little mini-jackpot for me, or is it more like stealing? And if it's stealing, I can't decide who I stole the money from.

2) I have no idea how cashier operations work at a casino. What are the odds that the cashier will get in trouble?

I work at a casino and there is no way they would make the cashier pay for his/her mistakes. As someone pointed out, if they make a mistake the supervisor goes into the back and tries to find where the mistake is. If they're still out and its a significant amount then you get written up. Not really a huge deal especially for $100. Who knows maybe she short changed someone for $50 or so earlier thus bringing her tray near balance.

 

[dacium]

There is no way the casino will even know unless someone combs over the video. I say a dealer payout people incorrectly twice one night, and got paid out $5 extra my self when the dealer thuoght I had stacks of $100 in 5's when one stack was obviously short.

The casino won't know of the mistake for ages because of variance. This is why they don't really care. I can't believe that someone would mistake $250 for $150. In australia any amount over $100 (thats only 70$ US) has to be checked by the floor man as well as the dealer. If a 50$ table is typically playing above minimum bet they will have at least 2 people watching the table (at first I thought it was for counters but its obvious they are clueless about counting).

At one point a dealer collected a perfect pair bet without realising the player had it. When the player asked for hte money she wasn't sure the player even had a bet out at all. But since the payout was under $100 she just paid it, no questions asked! I thought for sure they would have to camera it in or something.

EDIT: Sorry I thought you were changing the colour of your chips at the table, not actually cashing out. So what I have said doesnt apply.

 

[jbhall]

WWJD

...if he played blackjack that is.

Seriously, it’s a shame that there is more than one response to this question. This is a basic question about right and wrong. I’m amazed that the parents of most of the people responding didn’t do a better job when raising you. If anything makes it into your possession, and it is obviusly not yours, then you need to make a valiant attempt to return it.

When my daughter was about 7, we were at the mall and she saw a piece of paper and ran up to get it. It was a $50 bill. She asked if she could keep it. We explained that it was not ours and that we had to try to return it. We look around and no one was obviously looking for anything so we went to the office and told them that we found some money and left them our name and number. If anyone was to call with the amount that they had lost then we would gladly return it. Nobody did call and we let her keep half and put the other half in savings.

Look, I’m not a religious zealot, or I wouldn’t be on this site, but my Daddy did teach me right from wrong, and keeping something that is not mine is wrong. Every time!

 

[sagefr0g]

So, Friday night I spent a little time at the casino's $5 table to see if I could maintain a count through a 6-deck shoe in a casino environment. (I can't).

However, when I was cashing out for the night, the cashier made a mistake and gave me about $250 instead of the $150 in chips that I had. When I noticed after walking away, the cashier had already put the "closed" sign up in the window, and was going through her process of putting away chips and cash. There was no indication of any attempt to balance her chips or cash drawers. I ended up pocketing the cash, gambling a little more, then leaving.

1) Is this accounting error is just a nice little mini-jackpot for me, or is it more like stealing? And if it's stealing, I can't decide who I stole the money from.

2) I have no idea how cashier operations work at a casino. What are the odds that the cashier will get in trouble?

i think what it boils down to is you made a decision under pressure. casino environments are set up in such a way as to illicit a certain mind set.
are you absolutely sure you only had $150 in chips? it is reasonable for you to when thinking on the fly like that upon leaving the teller's window to be in a uncertain mental state. if you really did only have $150 in chips then the teller and the casino are responsible for putting you in the 'position'. i would say that if you had noticed a discrepency before you walked away then it would ethicaly have been encumbent upon you to try to rectify the situation. you would have wanted the casino to do the same for you if it were the other way around. but in your situation you didn't notice it until you walked away and the closed sign was put up on the teller window. i think the cash is all yours at that point. i sincerely don't believe that if i was put in the 'position' that you was put in that i could have been able to look out for the casino or teller's interests any better than you were. they put you in the position in every respect. the thing is if you find that the position is a difficult one for you to live with you could decide to pay the casino back at any time you wish. look at it as if you have $150 to really put at risk. go back to the tables with it and do a hail mary bet on a good advantage situation. hey if you win keep that too. keep doing it till you lose it. then your square dude.:devil:
best regards,
mr fr0g

 

[ScottH]

WWJD

...if he played blackjack that is.

Seriously, it’s a shame that there is more than one response to this question. This is a basic question about right and wrong. I’m amazed that the parents of most of the people responding didn’t do a better job when raising you. If anything makes it into your possession, and it is obviusly not yours, then you need to make a valiant attempt to return it.

When my daughter was about 7, we were at the mall and she saw a piece of paper and ran up to get it. It was a $50 bill. She asked if she could keep it. We explained that it was not ours and that we had to try to return it. We look around and no one was obviously looking for anything so we went to the office and told them that we found some money and left them our name and number. If anyone was to call with the amount that they had lost then we would gladly return it. Nobody did call and we let her keep half and put the other half in savings.

Look, I’m not a religious zealot, or I wouldn’t be on this site, but my Daddy did teach me right from wrong, and keeping something that is not mine is wrong. Every time!

In blackjack you have to lower your moral standards just a bit. The casino is trying to take money that isn't theirs as well. The casino is trying to take your money, and you have to try take theirs if you are an advantage player. It's just the nature of the game.

Do you think casinos are giving away free drinks to keep you as comfortable as possible? No, they are trying to take every last dollar from you. They are trying to make their customers make as many mistakes as possible. So if they go the extra mile to make us make mistakes, then why can't we take advantage of their mistakes? They aren't going to say, "You only hit that hand because of the drink we gave you, so the money doesn't belong to us, you can have it back."

So if I am using the same moral standards the casino is, then I think it is justified in keeping the money. And if you try to be "better" than the casino and do the right thing, you are only helping their cause.

 

[dacium]

This reminds me of one time I went to KFC. I did this massive order that came to like $44. When the finally got me all the food they handed my the bag and asked whos next, i take about two steps before I realise i haven't even paid. Now since its big company kfc most people probably do the same as the casino, I did and just walked out - kfc has screwed me over enough times with giving me 50% wings all the time.

I once actually gave a guy $50 by accident. I had a job where I exchanged notes. I usually take the note, put it away, then pull out the change notes. But this time I happened to have the change already in my hand and just gave it to him, then I put away the notes and gave him more change. It happened so fast (i would soley change 50$ for 10x5$ - about 20 times a minute) that I didnt even realise until he started to walk away. I am eyeing him off and the guy waits till I have 50$ in 5$ in my hand and comes back with another 50$ i am guessing to try to catch me again. I just put it back in the till and go, thats for being honest. He gives me the dirtest look ever and walks away ;-D

 

[shadroch]

In blackjack you have to lower your moral standards just a bit. The casino is trying to take money that isn't theirs as well. The casino is trying to take your money, and you have to try take theirs if you are an advantage player. It's just the nature of the game.

Do you think casinos are giving away free drinks to keep you as comfortable as possible? No, they are trying to take every last dollar from you. They are trying to make their customers make as many mistakes as possible. So if they go the extra mile to make us make mistakes, then why can't we take advantage of their mistakes? They aren't going to say, "You only hit that hand because of the drink we gave you, so the money doesn't belong to us, you can have it back."

So if I am using the same moral standards the casino is, then I think it is justified in keeping the money. And if you try to be "better" than the casino and do the right thing, you are only helping their cause.

Either you have morals and standards,or you don't.You can justify anything if you want.I'm sure the guy who busted my car window to steal an empty gift box thought "the insurance company will pay for it anyway".
If you lower your standards according to the situation,you never had them to begin with.

 

[sagefr0g]

In blackjack you have to lower your moral standards just a bit. The casino is trying to take money that isn't theirs as well. The casino is trying to take your money, and you have to try take theirs if you are an advantage player. It's just the nature of the game.

Either you have morals and standards,or you don't.You can justify anything if you want.I'm sure the guy who busted my car window to steal an empty gift box thought "the insurance company will pay for it anyway".
If you lower your standards according to the situation,you never had them to begin with.

moral standards are like opinions every one has one.:devil:
so here is a question that may or may not be a quandry for you.
is it ethical for advantage players to ply their skills against the poor defense less little casino's? do you ever feel a twinge of remorse upon having trounced any of these outfits? i have, i'm not kidding.
best regards,
mr fr0g

 

[Mikeaber]

moral standards are like opinions every one has one.:devil:
so here is a question that may or may not be a quandry for you.
is it ethical for advantage players to ply their skills against the poor defense less little casino's? do you ever feel a twinge of remorse upon having trounced any of these outfits? i have, i'm not kidding.
best regards,
mr fr0g

Hmmm....."No." My only reservation about using AP skills is that I'll be backed off or banned at casinos that are convenient for me logistically. I do not feel that the skills we employ are in any way to be considered unethical, immoral and certainly not illegal ....we simply utilize all the information we can legally gather in making decisions that directly impact the amount of risk we are taking with wagers. Should we "check our brains" at the door when we enter the casino?

 

[sagefr0g]

Hmmm....."No." My only reservation about using AP skills is that I'll be backed off or banned at casinos that are convenient for me logistically. I do not feel that the skills we employ are in any way to be considered unethical, immoral and certainly not illegal ....we simply utilize all the information we can legally gather in making decisions that directly impact the amount of risk we are taking with wagers. Should we "check our brains" at the door when we enter the casino?

most of the joints i've been in have treated me fairly. no, not just fairly like a prince and i'm a fr0g . you've heard that story before right?
anyway, some have been down right friendly. you know the real kind of friendly not just ingriatiateing. there is one joint i frequent that has an up and down business. they are probably the one of them all i've been in that treats folks the squarest. so some times when i trounce them really bad i think of some of the faces i know and think well i hope these folks are all gonna be alright:violin:. i don't tip much, you know as an AP tipping can cut into your bottom line pretty steeply. i sometimes think gee i wish i could help this place by bringing them in some more business some how but then i think no i wouldn't want to put some poor dumb innocent slob into the hands of any casino.
best regards,
mr fr0g

 

[shadroch]

moral standards are like opinions every one has one.:devil:
so here is a question that may or may not be a quandry for you.
is it ethical for advantage players to ply their skills against the poor defense less little casino's? do you ever feel a twinge of remorse upon having trounced any of these outfits? i have, i'm not kidding.
best regards,
mr fr0g

Outside of a martial arts expert taking advantage of a drunk in a fight,I can't think of any scenerio that using ones skills is unethical.

 

[ScottH]

Either you have morals and standards,or you don't.You can justify anything if you want.I'm sure the guy who busted my car window to steal an empty gift box thought "the insurance company will pay for it anyway".
If you lower your standards according to the situation,you never had them to begin with.

Well I guess I don't have any moral standards then, darn! :devil:

 

[sagefr0g]

Outside of a martial arts expert taking advantage of a drunk in a fight,I can't think of any scenerio that using ones skills is unethical.

well suppose we make the question a bit more abstract and general.

if one knows that ones skill is such that it yields an advantage so great against an opponent that the opponent is unable to win is it fair to wield that advantage against said opponent repeatedly in contest after contest?

here's the abstract one i like to justify the the 'rightness' of plying advantage play on casinos.

we have a bully. the bully takes advantage of every one that cross's his path.
we know the bully has an achilleys heel and we have the skill to take advantage of that weakness. we defeat the bully when we do so but the bully continues his behavior with all that cross his path. so when ever we cross the bully's path we employ our advantage.

best regards,
mr fr0g

 

[dacium]

I think it comes down to this:
if people arent counting they are knowingly giving the house an edge.
As long as the house is making a profit after all their expesenses I would not hesitate at all to take their money.