More AC Heat and NJ Gaming Law Question

[Dyepaintball12]

This is a prime example of the consequences of Ustons lawsuite.

Casinos in AC have no other alternative to protecting the BJ games than to do as above.

There is also a great amount of posting about exploits at the AC casinos, and Conneticut, conditions etc. This is a big mistake. Maybe that is why you have the worst conditions in the U.S.

The attitude and actions of the OP in this instance showed poor judgment.

I looked at his member date and was amazed, thought it was a newbie by his actions.

I would implore that all of you do some research on gambling addictions.

CP

How about Casinos train their employees on how to spot card counters instead of providing a terrible game to the general public that is hurting them more than helping?

Saying "they have to have a terrible game" because the law makes them is not correct.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

it seems like so many people on these forums play in AC and i don't understand why..everything i've read about it makes it out to be a terrible place for a card counter. perhaps other ap techniques make up for the ac ugliness

You have to be flexible and opportunistic. It's not a good place to just walk up to a blackjack table and count cards, but not that many places really are.

 

[FLASH1296]

A $500 "chokepoint" is a virtual default figure.

Acting childishly vindictive not only does you no boon, but it justifies
their actions in their little minds; as they can enjoy backing you off.
You made their (otherwise boring) day.

Also, you should know better than to "park" yourself for that long; not to
mention making a huge bet jump, as I suspected you did.

 

[ArcticInferno]

Hey Dyepaintball12, the casinos do train their dealers (and the pit crew) to be suspicious of players who vary their bets. The reason I know is because a dealer told me. I was making a frivolous chat and asked if there's a red foot petal that they step on, and he said that they just whisper quietly to the pit crew. He said that they particularly look for bet variations up and down over several shoes. Ever since that little conversation with that dealer, I always leave the table after two shoes, maybe three, but I never stay for four shoes. Don't let any one particular dealer see your pattern over several shoes.
I learned another trick. Borgata changes the shift at 12:00 PM. I play until 11:45 AM and leave the Blackjack area to eat. I return after the shift has fully changed, and the new crew doesn't know that I've been there before the shift changed. Borgata does 3 8-hour shifts.
I don't know the exactly shift schedules for others, but I would love to know Trump Plaza, Tropicana, Hiltons, and Resorts.

 

[FLASH1296]

Caveat

What the pit always looks for is a lot of bet re-sizing.
Ordinary ploppy players do not do that.

What you need to realize is that while there are 3 shifts in a casino;
there are nine (9) daily shift changes.
Three (3)each for dealers, the pit, and surveillance.

They overlap considerably.

 

[ArcticInferno]

By "bet re-sizing", you mean varying the bets up and down according to the count.
Isn't that what *all* counters do?

If I'm not mistaken, at Borgata the pit crew and the dealers all change shifts simultaneously.
According to many books, the surveillance crew in the camera room must be alerted by the pit,
and only then do they rewind the video and analyze your play. The surveillance crew doesn't
actively hunt for counters.

 

[FLASH1296]

By "bet re-sizing", you mean varying the bets up and down according to the count.
Isn't that what *all* counters do?

If I'm not mistaken, at Borgata the pit crew and the dealers all change shifts simultaneously.
According to many books, the surveillance crew in the camera room must be alerted by the pit,
and only then do they rewind the video and analyze your play. The surveillance crew doesn't
actively hunt for counters.

Yes, varying your bets along an obvious continuum, with too many different sized bets.

It is the frequency of the changes that gets you caught.

Normally, the Pit Boss phones surveillance for a "skills check"
BUT if your bets reach a certain threshold
(or your session win does) you are automatically surveilled.

In general, patrons in the Hi-Limit Pits are under continuous observation via "the eye"

 

[Albundy]

Yes, varying your bets along an obvious continuum, with too many different sized bets.

It is the frequency of the changes that gets you caught.

Normally, the Pit Boss phones surveillance for a "skills check"
BUT if your bets reach a certain threshold
(or your session win does) you are automatically surveilled.

In general, patrons in the Hi-Limit Pits are under continuous observation via "the eye"

I'm not sure I understood you . Do you recommend NOT to vary your bet sizing frequently?

Second, on an eight deck shoe game, what spread do you advise?

Tyia.

 

[FLASH1296]

“Do you recommend NOT to vary your bet sizing frequently?

… eight deck game, what spread do you advise?“

It is the constant bet resizing that is so blatantly obvious that you are a card counter. So … “floor” your True Count and do not change your bet size unless it is absolutely clearly correct to do so.

Your question about the shoe game spread cannot be answered so simply.

The greater the stakes and the greater the heat (almost synonymous) the narrower the spread. The better the rules and the deeper the spread the narrower the spread. The stronger your count the narrower the the spread needed to gain a good advantage (e.g. Zen vs. Hi-Lo)

If you want a rule of thumb - [be very careful here] - Use 8 to 1 in a game with a lot of heat or good rules / penetration. — Use 16 to 1 in a typical (“marginal“) game., and do NOT play in poor games at all.

 

[FLASH1296]

Important note re: Arctic Inferno’s post:

Surveillance typically changes shifts one (or more) hours BEFORE the regular shift changes.

 

[moo321]

I'm not sure I understood you . Do you recommend NOT to vary your bet sizing frequently?

Second, on an eight deck shoe game, what spread do you advise?

Tyia.

Flash recommends not varying your bets a lot. I don't agree.

I recommend 1-20 for 8 deckers, if not more.

 

[ArcticInferno]

Moo321, there's nothing particularly special about the 8 deck that requires 1:20 bet spread.
1:20 bet spread is great in 6 decks as well if you can get away with it.
You can beat the 8 deck with 1:6 spread if you lower your expectations.
There's a minimum bet spread that will allow you to break even, and any spead beyond that will give you positive EV.
Generally speaking, poorer penetration requires large bet spread.

 

[kewljason]

Flash recommends not varying your bets a lot. I don't agree.

I recommend 1-20 for 8 deckers, if not more.

Moo, I think you may have misinterpreted what Flash was saying. I though he was trying to say don't have many different bet amounts rather than the total spread itself. In other words dont ramp 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 12, 16. Too many different amounts. A 1, 4, 8, 12, 16 would be less obvious.

Also, your recommended 1-20 spread, if not more. I think you should qualify that because it really depends on unit size, games, situations. Spreading $10-$200 will draw less heat than spreading $25-$500. If you are playing a $25 unit, a $25-$500 spread will get noticed in AC. $500 is an amouth that draws additional attention. You may get away with it if you are an occasional player playing only busy weekend times, but if you play regularly, especially weekdays, using that spread, you better plan to play very short sessions. What about $50-$1000? That will draw attention real quick. So to just recommend a 1-20 spread or more dosen't take everything into account.

 

[FLASH1296]

Moo, I think you may have misinterpreted what Flash was saying. I though he was trying to say don't have many different bet amounts rather than the total spread itself. In other words dont ramp 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 12, 16. Too many different amounts. 1, 4, 8, 12, 16 would be less obvious.

The frequency of bet size changes is still KEY

 

[Thunder]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. I would argue that a ramp of 1,4,8,12, 16 might be more obvious as it would be easier to spot a clear correlation between the TC and bet unit in that the person will bet 4 units more for each jump in the TC with 16 being the max bet. Sometimes I know I will intentionally mix the bet ramp amounts a little bit to throw off any heat.

 

[aslan]

I'm not saying what I did was smart, and I'm not looking for judgment on what I did either. I count as an avid hobby, I don't use it to pay my bills.

What still remains unanswered is if it is legal to make a bet without knowing if it will be accepted or not...

Your bet will be accepted...unfortunately, on the next shoe, not the present one. AC casinos reserve the right to shuffle at any time. That is their only protection. It is the same as if a relief dealer were to arrive. In many places a new dealer signals a new shuffle, no matter what time the new dealer arrives, so long as no cards have yet been dealt. I ran into this in Las Vegas two weeks ago.

 

[kewljason]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. I would argue that a ramp of 1,4,8,12, 16 might be more obvious as it would be easier to spot a clear correlation between the TC and bet unit in that the person will bet 4 units more for each jump in the TC with 16 being the max bet. Sometimes I know I will intentionally mix the bet ramp amounts a little bit to throw off any heat.

The above spread was just an example of Flash's point. Like you, Thunder, I don't ramp up in a pattern like that. I personally go 1 unit, 3 units, 7 units, but then I do go even amounts of 12 unit and 16 units at TC's above +3 because I am lazy and want to make my insurance wager easy. But by the time I get to 12 units, I am leaving at the end of the shoe anyway.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Thunder Clap

which seems more aggressive?

To double up full bets on a win
or
To increase just 1 chip out of a stack on a win

Also,

bet 40, 50, 60, 50, 60, 50, 40, 50, 60
or
bet 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50

Probably both examples are subjective with no right answer:joker::whip:

 

[Thunder]

which seems more aggressive?

To double up full bets on a win
or
To increase just 1 chip out of a stack on a win

Also,

bet 40, 50, 60, 50, 60, 50, 40, 50, 60
or
bet 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50

Probably both examples are subjective with no right answer:joker::whip:

If you're going by the strictest sense of the word, then to double up full bets on a win would be considered more aggressive. In the second example, the first line would be more aggressive since the sum total is more As for heat purposes, none of them are likely to generate much if any heat unless you keep winning when you double up your bet. Heat doesn't necessarily always correlate with BJ skill.

 

[moo321]

Moo321, there's nothing particularly special about the 8 deck that requires 1:20 bet spread.
1:20 bet spread is great in 6 decks as well if you can get away with it.
You can beat the 8 deck with 1:6 spread if you lower your expectations.
There's a minimum bet spread that will allow you to break even, and any spead beyond that will give you positive EV.
Generally speaking, poorer penetration requires large bet spread.

Well, the problem with 8 deckers is that the count is so static, it's hard to get a high count. That's why I recommend slamming down big bets when it finally gets there.

With some of the "typical" spreads people recommend, like 1-12, your scores are absolute dogshit. Probably less than $25 for the average AC 8 decker. I personally wouldn't risk a 10k bankroll for $25 an hour.

Also, it's kind of a moot point, because I don't think anyone should be playing all in an AC 8 decker, unless they really need the comps. The SCORE is so much better back-counting, and the heat is much lower.


The only reason I would consider a smaller spread is if there was a really good game I wanted to protect, i.e. a half deck cut or early surrender.