... more manipulated card order via Shuffle Master used in Seminole Casinos Video

[xengrifter]

Is there any evidence that exists, mathematical analysis or computer simulation, that would show that a casino would have a greater advantage for any given sequence of cards under normal casino conditions with variable numbers of players and cut card placements?

Peter Griffin in TOB found many shuffle oddities, and he answered your question with an example: A fresh ordered deck given 5 perfect riffles gives the house a 20% advantage over perfect basic strategy.

And these occur naturally. But what If you could arrange for them more often? Do you think some casinos would? Especially until they were specifically told they couldn't?

This is presumably why back in the 90s and until their demise Binion's would change the single decks every 30 minutes, and the initial deck change shuffle was: no wash, no strip, 5 rifles and go... Every 30 minutes the house enjoyed a huge advantage burst for the first shuffle.

 

[JohnCrover]

Five PERFECT riffles. What about imperfect riffles?
It's very difficult to riffle a deck perfectly one time, let alone 5.

 

[xengrifter]

Five PERFECT riffles. What about imperfect riffles?
It's very difficult to riffle a deck perfectly one time, let alone 5.

Sure, but I think the overall effect would
sustain with slightly imperfect riffles...
... On the other hand, an ASM in beast mode, would be capable of perfect riffles and even more devastating shuffle sequences that were never observed by Griffin.

 

[BJgenius007]

Is there any evidence that exists, mathematical analysis or computer simulation, that would show that a casino would have a greater advantage for any given sequence of cards under normal casino conditions with variable numbers of players and cut card placements? I am wondering that even if an ASM can order cards to any specific sequence, what proof exists that indicates this would give them a greater advantage against card counters or average players?

I have done a simulation based on my custom program that calculates SCORE. The settings are 6D, 90% penetration, PA rules. My counting method is Zen with side count 8 and 9 together in a bin. My original plan is stage 1, cards are simply clumped. Stage 2, add anti Basic Strategy elements. Stage 3, add anti True Count elements. The elements that I observe at casinos. For stage 1, 50% of cards, or the last three decks, are clumped. (So top 3 decks are not clumped.) After randomly shuffled, the program will move cards slightly. Cards are moving no more than 39 cards to be close with their brothers in the same group to form a clump when the program gives the move a go. There are three groups: small (2-6), mid (7-9) and face (T, J, Q, K). Aces are not moved. There are "accent cards" (like non-face cards in face card clump) that won't be moved to make the sequence less suspicious. This should keep TC rise and fall very close to the original sequence. The cut card is randomly placed between card 52 and card 260, like casinos request, so players might encounter the clumps early or late in a shoe.

I stopped modifying the program to implement stage 2 and stage 3 because simple clumping has killed SCORE already. From the random generator, SCORE is 59. That is what I got from hand shuffled 6D deep penetration with the benefits of side count 8 and 9. My stage 1 clumping SCORE is -138. The 90% percentile is 15. (Z=1.282 or 1.282 standard deviations.) The 10% percentile is -320. That means, if you are super lucky in the top 10% scorers, you can still make money against ASM, but you will win $15 a hour with the skill set of side count 8/9 and Zen. But people will lose $138 a hour in average even with very high AP skill. I did not add more codes to my program because I have seen enough. I don't need to add those malicious elements to my program. They will make SCORE even much worse. I choose just sticking to the hand-shuffled games.

 

[Nightshifter]

Of course there are sequences that would be beneficial to the house. Wouldn't be hard to figure out with simulations.

And these occur naturally. But what If you could arrange for them more often? Do you think some casinos would? Especially until they were specifically told they couldn't?

An easy example is a clump of 10 value cards without aces. Doesn't matter how they were cut, result will be a majority of cards played depleted of 10 value cards (advantage house) and at some point a couple rounds of 20 vs 20 pushes.

... and it's a legal way of taking some of the 10's out of the deck... at least from the average players point of view... you don't have to remove 10's or Ace's from the decks anymore... just clump them together which could easily result in a 20 push ... now sometimes the dealer gets the 'accent' card (9 or 8... whatever) and everyone else has 10's... but remember ... if this 20's push can happen just a few percentage points more than normal... in the long run the house is scooping up more money than they mathematically should. Another series is 8s,7s,5s,3s & 2s ... and don't forget where there is an abundance in one area creates a shortage in another. If the majority of Ace's follow the lower valued cards, you're simply not going to get as many blackjacks if any... and split Ace's with usually draw low cards. KewlJ knows what seems to be natural based on his years of experience in a variety of situations... what we're are talking about is when some form of manipulation is going on in which the house increases its edge. I know at the Hardrock there that Raven plays at... they scoop up all blackjacks first... which puts the Aces and Tens together. If two players had a blackjack... they are both paid and scooped before proceeding with the game... over the long run... this will create more chances for the dealer and player (at the same time) to have blackjack nullifying the players hand (unless dealer had ace up and player took even money...) yeah sure this scenario won't happen all the time... but it does increase the chance of the dealer getting an Ace in a Ace 10s clump... and over millions of hands year in and year out with the casino ... this little thing will add a certain percentage to the houses edge ... you gotta look at the big picture with this... not just say... oh well.. players keep coming and going.. you have people misplaying their hands... so how can the machine know how to stack the cards... NO! like LLKewlJ said just by getting the 10's out of the deck by purposely clumping, will hurt the BS/Counting player no matter what is happening on the players side because already any player is at a disadvantage right from the start.

I seen consistent swings of counts greater than + or minus 15 (double deck games) after 50% of the cards were dealt using HiOPT II... and people not matter how good they are... getting totally wiped out because either the goods weren't delivered (as raven put it) or even if they were... all the 10's came out BUNCHED so the dealer got a twenty as well thus creating a poor situation for the rest of the game. Now taking this a step further... imagine running simulations that would determine what grouping of cards would hurt the BS/Counting Player??? Why is this possible... simple because a majority of players play one way and the house plays another not to mention we players have to make the first move (hit, stand, split, double, surrender...) KewlJ has a lot of experience in this area so I'd really listen to what he's trying to warn others players about out of the goodness of his heart! It doesn't happen all the time and every casino has their own policies... but believe me... it happens! Where there is money there's corruption....

 

[Raven]

what proof exists that indicates this would give them a greater advantage against card counters or average players?

Well I can say this.. there are many, MANY nights where the shoes at this place hit true +2 even before the 1st deck plays out and then continues to rise up to the cut card with no recovery whatsoever. In other words the count gets stuck kind of.. a random walk with an upward drift if you will. Always moving up even at end of shoe, and I'm talking +30 running counts! The highest I've seen was +45 using Red 7 starting at '9'. I true count Red 7 and half point count the 7's making it a level 2 count. That means at the end of 6 decks '21' is dead even. The problem is that you're max betting into this rising count thinking you have this monster advantage only to get ass raped by stiff hands and the dealer ripping off small card 20's and 21's like it's negative 10. This type of separation of low cards from highs would raise the house edge astronomically because it's literally a negative shoe composition even if your count tells you otherwise. Due to a non random distribution of cards. For the average ploppies flat betting it might not be as noticeable, but for us it can turn your ROR on it's head and send you out the door bleeding from the bung hole. I find it impossible to believe that a clump of mostly high cards could be cut out of play so consistently without some form of intentional tampering. And with players cutting in random places it seems unlikely, but the card distribution in these shoes is definitely similar almost all the time. The one difference is that sometimes that clump ends up in the front of the shoe or fairly close to it and the counts goes in the toilet really fast with a bunch of pushes like @KewlJ said. If I can find out where to cut it consistently I can move that clump to the front and push bets out from round one maybe catching some good hands, and let the count tank and go to another table.

 

[Nightshifter]

I have done a simulation based on my custom program that calculates SCORE. The settings are 6D, 90% penetration, PA rules. My counting method is Zen with side count 8 and 9 together in a bin. My original plan is stage 1, cards are simply clumped. Stage 2, add anti Basic Strategy elements. Stage 3, add anti True Count elements. The elements that I observe at casinos. For stage 1, 50% of cards, or the last three decks, are clumped. (So top 3 decks are not clumped.) After randomly shuffled, the program will move cards slightly. Cards are moving no more than 39 cards to be close with their brothers in the same group to form a clump when the program gives the move a go. There are three groups: small (2-6), mid (7-9) and face (T, J, Q, K). Aces are not moved. There are "accent cards" (like non-face cards in face card clump) that won't be moved to make the sequence less suspicious. This should keep TC rise and fall very close to the original sequence. The cut card is randomly placed between card 52 and card 260, like casinos request, so players might encounter the clumps early or late in a shoe.

I stopped modifying the program to implement stage 2 and stage 3 because simple clumping has killed SCORE already. From the random generator, SCORE is 59. That is what I got from hand shuffled 6D deep penetration with the benefits of side count 8 and 9. My stage 1 clumping SCORE is -138. The 90% percentile is 15. (Z=1.282 or 1.282 standard deviations.) The 10% percentile is -320. That means, if you are super lucky in the top 10% scorers, you can still make money against ASM, but you will win $15 a hour with the skill set of side count 8/9 and Zen. But people will lose $138 a hour in average even with very high AP skill. I did not add more codes to my program because I have seen enough. I don't need to add those malicious elements to my program. They will make SCORE even much worse. I choose just sticking to the hand-shuffled games.

Excellent work BJgenius... basically you're doing what they did many years ago Old mafia adage... you can't beat cards that aren't shuffled. SG Gaming is really tight if not one and the same corrupt outfit with a majority of the casinos. Just like Opium... it's really controlled on who can get their hands on their ASM machines/chips whatever... and you'd better watch out if you go public with some convincing evidence that this sort of manipulation is going on... even at very well esteemed casinos Organized crime has invested money into the old Indian bingo halls here turning them eventually into resorts because some genius figured out ... Hey.. we don't have to pay taxes on the drop ... no more skimming Nobody ever would of thought that part of the CIA was smuggling in drugs... Crooks In Action... so much corruption has come to light over the past decades.

 

[Raven]

... and it's a legal way of taking some of the 10's out of the deck... at least from the average players point of view... you don't have to remove 10's or Ace's from the decks anymore... just clump them together which could easily result in a 20 push ... now sometimes the dealer gets the 'accent' card (9 or 8... whatever) and everyone else has 10's... but remember ... if this 20's push can happen just a few percentage points more than normal... in the long run the house is scooping up more money than they mathematically should. Another series is 8s,7s,5s,3s & 2s ... and don't forget where there is an abundance in one area creates a shortage in another. If the majority of Ace's follow the lower valued cards, you're simply not going to get as many blackjacks if any... and split Ace's with usually draw low cards. KewlJ knows what seems to be natural based on his years of experience in a variety of situations... what we're are talking about is when some form of manipulation is going on in which the house increases its edge. I know at the Hardrock there that Raven plays at... they scoop up all blackjacks first... which puts the Aces and Tens together. If two players had a blackjack... they are both paid and scooped before proceeding with the game... over the long run... this will create more chances for the dealer and player (at the same time) to have blackjack nullifying the players hand (unless dealer had ace up and player took even money...) yeah sure this scenario won't happen all the time... but it does increase the chance of the dealer getting an Ace in a Ace 10s clump... and over millions of hands year in and year out with the casino ... this little thing will add a certain percentage to the houses edge ... you gotta look at the big picture with this... not just say... oh well.. players keep coming and going.. you have people misplaying their hands... so how can the machine know how to stack the cards... NO! like LLKewlJ said just by getting the 10's out of the deck by purposely clumping, will hurt the BS/Counting player no matter what is happening on the players side because already any player is at a disadvantage right from the start.

I seen consistent swings of counts greater than + or minus 15 (double deck games) after 50% of the cards were dealt using HiOPT II... and people not matter how good they are... getting totally wiped out because either the goods weren't delivered (as raven put it) or even if they were... all the 10's came out BUNCHED so the dealer got a twenty as well thus creating a poor situation for the rest of the game. Now taking this a step further... imagine running simulations that would determine what grouping of cards would hurt the BS/Counting Player??? Why is this possible... simple because a majority of players play one way and the house plays another not to mention we players have to make the first move (hit, stand, split, double, surrender...) KewlJ has a lot of experience in this area so I'd really listen to what he's trying to warn others players about out of the goodness of his heart! It doesn't happen all the time and every casino has their own policies... but believe me... it happens! Where there is money there's corruption....

But don't you think the clumping stuff is happening maybe due to environmental effects such as humidity, oily skin touching cards etc? I had a similar random clumping in my own 6D shoe once where I was losing so many hands I fucking threw the entire shoe against wall and broke it..


Anyhow I bought new cards and the problem went away. After a few days or weeks of practice the problem started again. I noticed repeating hands and similar losses. Ten and 12 consecutive losses in high counts. I threw cards in the garbage then contacted a girl I know that does cardistry. She told me about the difference between paper and plastic cards, and about sanding the sides on denim. She told me to put them in the freezer before and after each use and the problem would go away. And it did. I still have same, well now only 4 decks.

 

[xengrifter]

don't you think the clumping stuff is happening maybe due to environmental effects

Yes, climate change.

 

[Raven]

Yes, climate change.

Omg! Repent! The time is near!!

 

[Nightshifter]

But don't you think the clumping stuff is happening maybe due to environmental effects such as humidity, oily skin touching cards etc? I had a similar random clumping in my own 6D shoe once where I was losing so many hands I fucking threw the entire shoe against wall and broke it..


Anyhow I bought new cards and the problem went away. After a few days or weeks of practice the problem started again. I noticed repeating hands and similar losses. Ten and 12 consecutive losses in high counts. I threw cards in the garbage then contacted a girl I know that does cardistry. She told me about the difference between paper and plastic cards, and about sanding the sides on denim. She told me to put them in the freezer before and after each use and the problem would go away. And it did. I still have same, well now only 4 decks.

Not really... don't forget casinos change cards every 2, 4 or 8 hours... but similar to playing in Atlantic City... salty air makes the cards stick...

putting aside that 'GREASY JOHN NOTION' what happens is... that the poor hands are picked up first and discarded in the card holder... then all the better hands at the end of the round... this will sort the cards into small clumps over time more and more... it's a perpetuating affect... it's inherent in the way the game was designed... and if the dealer is constantly having a face showing ... there are going to be much more break card clumps created... eventually it will create a 'barcoding' effect (if you line all the 10s with a black sharpie..) you'll see this pattern form over time until it washes itself out again and repeats. A tight wash on a new deck is purposely done to encourage this right off the start... I should know... I was a blackjack dealer and told to do it that way... we didn't call it clumping but we called it chunking the deck years ago... most of us knew that it would wipe out the players... now what you have to do is an unbalanced shuffle to perpetuate the clumps in a constant shuffle pattern employed by the casino... some dealers are very skilled at doing this... others don't have a clue what's going on. You should sort your cards back into pack order... and do a tight wash on each deck.... this will PUSH a lot of like cards together because of the order a new deck is in.... then only shuffle 60% of the cards per pick... so about 1/3 of the cards on the bottom aren't in the shuffle... So the more players at the table, the worse it gets... esp. if it's being encouraged by a tight wash and unbalanced shuffling of at least 2 to 3 ratio... if it's not done... then the game should proceed in a statistically normal manner.

also don't forget... like slots... casinos like to advertise winning! this will get others to join in eventually... you always see people watching on the sidelines for a HOT table or machines... people gotta win sometimes or it's bad for the business... and the casino knows when it's the most advantages to employ these methods to increase the drop and when not to...

If you really want to get advanced ... you should employ shuffle tracking on those hand held games and or card sequencing on hand held and certain ASMs (this has helped me so much with splitting aces... knowing that these aces were surrounded by low cards and the ASM really didn't displace them that much from the previous shuffle)... shuffle tracking will allow you to get an idea what has been cut out (if you didn't cut) and add that to your starting running count... there's so much more to this game than just employing a powerful card counting system diligently... esp in this day of age.

At Barona... they don't mind card counters... 90% aren't good enough to beat the house and the ones that are... they'll let play (to a point) because it's good advertising ... you can ask any PIT SHIFT whatever boss there and they'll tell you this if you're in town... but when the ASM lowers the boom on these guys... lookout.. all of a sudden a neutral deck goes to +27 @ 50% of the shoe on double-deck =D (HIOPT II) just outta the blue and wipes them out ... spreading to 2 or 3 hands getting all crapy card combinations...

 

[Ryemo]

“At Barona... they don't mind card counters... 90% aren't good enough to beat the house and the ones that are... they'll let play (to a point) because it's good advertising ...”

Lol @ this... I just looked at my records. I got exactly 1 hour of play at Barona (pretty much broke even) before being told I could no longer play blackjack. I will say that they were extremely polite during said BO. Zero hostility.

 

[Nightshifter]

“At Barona... they don't mind card counters... 90% aren't good enough to beat the house and the ones that are... they'll let play (to a point) because it's good advertising ...”

Lol @ this... I just looked at my records. I got exactly 1 hour of play at Barona (pretty much broke even) before being told I could no longer play blackjack. I will say that they were extremely polite during said BO. Zero hostility.

like I said... to a point When did you play? I was just recently there... I should take a hidden camera with me and ask the pit about card counters ... that's exactly what they told me several times

 

[Ryemo]

Almost 2.5 years ago.

 

[Raven]

like I said... to a point When did you play? I was just recently there... I should take a hidden camera with me and ask the pit about card counters ... that's exactly what they told me several times

One of the places I play there is no heat really. There is a pit boss there that gets bankrolled to play by backers as a side gig, and we talk shop all the time. He came to a table I was blatantly counting on and watched me play. The dealer busted a hand with a 2, with my max bet out. I realized it at the same time he did and saw his face cringe like "wtf?" He told the dealer to wait as he scooped the cards and grab my chip. "Gimme the cards." He lays our cards on the table and says, "Add those up for me." Dealer starts counting and realizes his mistake. "He beat you. Payyyy theeeaaaat meyyaannn his meeeoneyyy."

 

[JohnCrover]

Barona backed me off for spreading $5-$15, sitting out negatives and "looking at the cards funny." All in about 20 minutes.
Barona, tolerant? Give me a break.

 

[Nightshifter]

Barona backed me off for spreading $5-$15, sitting out negatives and "looking at the cards funny." All in about 20 minutes.
Barona, tolerant? Give me a break.

1-3 spread and sitting out on negatives? Hard to believe they would back you off... they let the bad counters play... as long as they're losing supposedly... I guess they're not tolerant of what could be a future eminent threat But getting in with the pit bosses over there... they told me a completely different story hmmm...

One of the places I play there is no heat really. There is a pit boss there that gets bankrolled to play by backers as a side gig, and we talk shop all the time. He came to a table I was blatantly counting on and watched me play. The dealer busted a hand with a 2, with my max bet out. I realized it at the same time he did and saw his face cringe like "wtf?" He told the dealer to wait as he scooped the cards and grab my chip. "Gimme the cards." He lays our cards on the table and says, "Add those up for me." Dealer starts counting and realizes his mistake. "He beat you. Payyyy theeeaaaat meyyaannn his meeeoneyyy."

hmmm... seems like you're playing along with Christopher Lloyd over there at the Hardrock ? The counter that looks like Doc Emmett Brown from Back to the Future? LOL I can't use real names here...

 

[JohnCrover]

When they backed me off they told me it was a myth that casinos didn't care about low stake counters and that they would back anyone off who is playing a winning game.

 

[Nightshifter]

When they backed me off they told me it was a myth that casinos didn't care about low stake counters and that they would back anyone off who is playing a winning game.

Wow! Funny because I know a few Asian counters that play there all the time at the $25 tables near the entrance to the food court area... and were never backed off... hmmm... recently I never saw a $5 DD game at Barona... usually $10 or $15 & up. there was a $5 BJ Switch game once... but they took it down... how long ago were you there??

 

[Raven]

1-3 spread and sitting out on negatives? Hard to believe they would back you off... they let the bad counters play... as long as they're losing supposedly... I guess they're not tolerant of what could be a future eminent threat But getting in with the pit bosses over there... they told me a completely different story hmmm...



hmmm... seems like you're playing along with Christopher Lloyd over there at the Hardrock ? The counter that looks like Doc Emmett Brown from Back to the Future? LOL I can't use real names here...

I don't know him no. I play with protege of Prof Blue from Yale and a guy from BA paid forum in the mornings sometimes. One from Middle East who is coming back, and another 2 who are local.