My nice flat bet day

smgstevo

New Member
Hi fellas, don't come in here much. I don't count cards, but play perfect basic strategy. I've tinkered with different betting "schemas" in the past usually 2-1-2-3... but never bet flat until yesterday down in Oklahoma. I bet a flat 5 a hand and would leave the table after three lost hands in a row. The only increase in bet would be after my second loss where I increase it to 10. Was able to have three good sessions and ended up with a profit of 150 for the day. I would like to hear from other players if they have a similar method and/or advice.

Steve :)
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
You need to wise up in a hurry

"Carpe Diem" Savor the moment
You are guaranteed to lose all of your money over the long run.
"Guaranteed" means absolute 100% certainty, not 99% !
Even if you were playing a real game of blackjack and not that
awful ripoff available in your neck of the woods where there is an "ante" paid.
If I had the opportunity I would personally deal you blackjack and rebate part of your losses;
gladly sucking up your inevitable heavy losses.

 

callipygian

Well-Known Member
smgstevo said:
The only increase in bet would be after my second loss where I increase it to 10.
Well, then, you're not flat betting, are you? :confused:

smgstevo said:
I would like to hear from other players if they have a similar method and/or advice.
Yeah ... if you're not counting cards, always bet as little as possible. Any bet variation is just going to increase your losses.
 

Guynoire

Well-Known Member
FLASH1296 said:
If I had the opportunity I would personally deal you blackjack and rebate part of your losses; gladly sucking up your inevitable heavy losses.
Geez, you're being awfully harsh on a basic strategy player. If he's only betting $5 or $10 a hand then his expected loss per hour is something like $3. That's comparable to a movie or some other form of entertainment.
 

smgstevo

New Member
FLASH1296 said:
"Carpe Diem" Savor the moment
You are guaranteed to lose all of your money over the long run.
"Guaranteed" means absolute 100% certainty, not 99% !
Even if you were playing a real game of blackjack and not that
awful ripoff available in your neck of the woods where there is an "ante" paid.
If I had the opportunity I would personally deal you blackjack and rebate part of your losses;
gladly sucking up your inevitable heavy losses.


You know, you could have had a V8 ?
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
Guynoire said:
Geez, you're being awfully harsh on a basic strategy player. If he's only betting $5 or $10 a hand then his expected loss per hour is something like $3. That's comparable to a movie or some other form of entertainment.
yeah, it's an interesting point and one not just global for advantage players or rec players. exuberarnce over what works or doesn't gets the idea of what a good approach is or isn't but at the same time maybe it's a good idea to not allow all of that to become the chains that bind sort of thing. lemmings are apparently successful biological creatures but sometimes they carry that success right over steep cliiffs to a watery demise below, lol.:eek:
and yeah the ante and the lock step bet variation smgstevo is using with just basic strategy does point to some eventual unpleasant consequence. i'd like to see smgstevo free that bet variation thing up towards an idea of understanding when advantage and disadvantage presents to where he can make value decisions about those bets. just being aware of the ratio of high cards to low cards and what that means as far as raising or lowering bets sort of thing.
but yeah it's good smgstevo beat the price of a movie and with luck he could be up some, cut his bets to really flat betting and watch more 'free movie's' for a good long while sort of thing.
 

Blue Efficacy

Well-Known Member
FLASH1296 said:
"Carpe Diem" Savor the moment
You are guaranteed to lose all of your money over the long run.
"Guaranteed" means absolute 100% certainty, not 99% !
Even if you were playing a real game of blackjack and not that
awful ripoff available in your neck of the woods where there is an "ante" paid.
If I had the opportunity I would personally deal you blackjack and rebate part of your losses;
gladly sucking up your inevitable heavy losses.

Lets be honest, how long is it going to take a casual basic strategy player to reach the long run?
 

callipygian

Well-Known Member
Blue Efficacy said:
Lets be honest, how long is it going to take a casual basic strategy player to reach the long run?
Not as long as you might think. The variance is pretty low for BS play (1.15 units), so it'll take shorter for a BS player to reach the long run on -0.5% EV than it will for a card counter to reach the long run on +0.5% EV.
 

smgstevo

New Member
Tips for non counters, particularly on betting and when to and not to sit at a table would be good for me. I am aware of the long term house edge. :whip:
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
callipygian said:
Not as long as you might think. The variance is pretty low for BS play (1.15 units), so it'll take shorter for a BS player to reach the long run on -0.5% EV than it will for a card counter to reach the long run on +0.5% EV.
how does one figure N0 for just a flat betting BS player anyway? when i set up a flat better in CVCX it doesn't show values for N0 as far as i can see.
i'm guessing it's around 70,000 rounds or so for a 'typical' six deck game? :confused:
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
smgstevo said:
Tips for non counters, particularly on betting and when to and not to sit at a table would be good for me. I am aware of the long term house edge. :whip:
here's an idea of how to think of it.
low cards are:
2's, 3's, 4's, 5's & 6's
neutral cards are:
7's, 8's & 9's (these cards we just ignore)
high cards are:
10's & Ace's (you know in bj jack,queen & King are considered 10's)

for any full deck of cards you have just as many low cards as high cards. this is a symetrical condition.
now imagine that when a deck of cards is shuffled what happens. you can imagine that by chance the high and low cards may be perfectly mixed so that one follows another in order, or you can imagine that the begining of the deck might be heavily populated by low cards while the later part of the deck is quite naturally heavily populated by high cards. or it could be imagined vice-a-versa. and you could imagine that those high and low cards are dispersed in lots of various orders in the pack as a result of the shuffle.

ok but so why do we care?
because we know that when the remaining pack to be dealt is either symetrical with respect to low cards and high cards or asymetrically heavily weighted in low cards compared to high cards that we are at a disadvantage to the dealer. under these conditions we can expect to get less snappers, fewer successful double downs and not have the opportunity to make correct insurance bets.
but when the remaining pack to be dealt is asymetrically heavily weighted in high cards compared to low cards the opposite is true and we are actually at an advantage. in this situation we can expect to get more snappers, more successful double downs and have the opportunity to make correct insurance bets.
so but the thing is by gauging (more properly counting cards) the ratio of high cards to low cards seen as the dealer deals the cards we can determine if the remaining pack to be dealt is rich or poor in high cards. if we know the remaining pack is rich in high cards then we want to bet higher to take advantage of our chances for getting more snappers, successful double downs and winning insurance bets.

for orthodox counting there is a whole science as to how betting should be correlated to the various degree's of richness and poorness of the ratio of high cards to low cards. further there is a whole science as to how one goes about managing a bankroll according to risk and advantage as well.

essentially playing as you do, mainly basic strategy and maybe betting up on a whim, or using that 2-1-2-3... bets, you'll be better off leaving the table if you know the remaining pack is rich in low cards as compared to high cards.
probably you'd be best to not use the 2-1-2-3... bet thing all together and try and get more hands in when the pack to be dealt is rich in high cards.
 

rollem411

Well-Known Member
If you don't want to dedicate the time to get the edge, I would suggest you walk around and wait to hear people who are yelling and cheering at the table and sit down. You know they are winning and hopefully you will too.
 
Guynoire said:
Geez, you're being awfully harsh on a basic strategy player. If he's only betting $5 or $10 a hand then his expected loss per hour is something like $3. That's comparable to a movie or some other form of entertainment.
I agree, playing BS with good comps= +EV.
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
sagefr0g said:
how does one figure N0 for just a flat betting BS player anyway? when i set up a flat better in CVCX it doesn't show values for N0 as far as i can see.
i'm guessing it's around 70,000 rounds or so for a 'typical' six deck game? :confused:
Well, I guess you can figure out when a flat-betting BS player's EV will equal 1 SD. In other words, if he is still even after that number of hands, he is 1 SD to the good. It's just that his EV is negative. N0 sort of assumes a positive expectation game where one can, perhaps, reasonably conclude that when his EV is 1 SD ahead, it's not due to luck. If he is even, then he is 1 SD down.

So one man's still being even in money at that point is + 1sd for the BS player and he is called lucky and still has 100% ROR but 1 SD down for the counter who is called unlucky and not to worry lol.

70,000 sounds about right lol - plug in all 1's for the units in a sheet, say the BJ6deck team one, and see what happens lol. You should get SD about 1.15 units per round and a W/L% that is neg and represents the HA. Plug the N0 number in and you should see the high point of 1 SD is zero.
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
smgstevo said:
Tips for non counters, particularly on betting and when to and not to sit at a table would be good for me. I am aware of the long term house edge. :whip:

Well one tip might be to keep in mind you are expected to lose 1 flatbetting unit say every 3 hours at a full table.

So all you have to do to break even is win 1 $10 bet every three hours lol. Or somehow make-up that 1 unit betting anyway you choose. Perhaps using betting systems that will win that 1 unit a very high percentage of the time.
Perhaps post-poning the "long-run" for a while lol.

Playing at full tables slows down the inevitable too lol.
 

Guynoire

Well-Known Member
It's pretty basic stats guys. If you assume a negative expected value of .5% and a standard deviation of 1.15 then the break even point for being lucky, up 2 standard deviations, is

(2)*1.15*(N)^1/2 -.005*N = 0 ; N = 211,600

ie. 97% of all basic strategy players will be down after 211,600 rounds. That is a very very long time until the long run.
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
Kasi said:
Well, I guess you can figure out when a flat-betting BS player's EV will equal 1 SD. In other words, if he is still even after that number of hands, he is 1 SD to the good. It's just that his EV is negative. N0 sort of assumes a positive expectation game where one can, perhaps, reasonably conclude that when his EV is 1 SD ahead, it's not due to luck. If he is even, then he is 1 SD down.

So one man's still being even in money at that point is + 1sd for the BS player and he is called lucky and still has 100% ROR but 1 SD down for the counter who is called unlucky and not to worry lol.
there ya go thanks Kasi. at least i knew it had to do with variance.:rolleyes:
70,000 sounds about right lol - plug in all 1's for the units in a sheet, say the BJ6deck team one, and see what happens lol. You should get SD about 1.15 units per round and a W/L% that is neg and represents the HA. Plug the N0 number in and you should see the high point of 1 SD is zero.
yeah that's what i did was used the team spread sheet flat betting for a six deck game. i think it was more like 80,00 rounds but for some reason i figured a typical six deck game might be the lower number.
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
FLASH1296 said:
["]"Carpe Diem" Savor the moment
You are guaranteed to lose all of your money over the long run.
"Guaranteed" means absolute 100% certainty, not 99% !
Even if you were playing a real game of blackjack and not that
awful ripoff available in your neck of the woods where there is an "ante" paid.
If I had the opportunity I would personally deal you blackjack and rebate part of your losses;
gladly sucking up your inevitable heavy losses
Care to put a time limit on how long he must play for since neither of you will live forever?

You pay that rebate, how much again did you say it was? Is 10% OK? And when would you pay it? After every losing hand did you say?

Be careful what you ask for :grin:
 

cardcounter0

Well-Known Member
Had a perfect basic strategy friend who used to play the old 2 - 1 - 2 - 3.
But now he swears by 1 - 1 - 2 - 3 ...

Haven't really analyzed how this changes the distribution of wins/losses, but he seems to have fun at it.
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
Kasi said:
Well, I guess you can figure out when a flat-betting BS player's EV will equal 1 SD. In other words, if he is still even after that number of hands, he is 1 SD to the good. It's just that his EV is negative. N0 sort of assumes a positive expectation game where one can, perhaps, reasonably conclude that when his EV is 1 SD ahead, it's not due to luck. If he is even, then he is 1 SD down.

So one man's still being even in money at that point is + 1sd for the BS player and he is called lucky and still has 100% ROR but 1 SD down for the counter who is called unlucky and not to worry lol.

70,000 sounds about right lol - plug in all 1's for the units in a sheet, say the BJ6deck team one, and see what happens lol. You should get SD about 1.15 units per round and a W/L% that is neg and represents the HA. Plug the N0 number in and you should see the high point of 1 SD is zero.
so below is the spreadsheet for a six deck game flat betting. i plugged the number for N0 in with these results.
not sure how to interpret this in light of the definition of N0 from the online encyclopedia of 21:
N0. (N-zero) A mathematical term that reflects the number of hands required to be played with a certain set of rules and strategy before the player is ahead by at least one standard deviation.
 

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