Nasty nasty nasty holecarders

[Sucker]

i can sympathize with the sentiment but not the practicality.
i mean heck if the slopping trough is full you can't just expect the hogs to leave, lol.
i think i'm gonna find some way to stick my snout in there as well, lol....
besides knocking something else down while they are gorging, sorta thing.
but respect, yes, that's definitely in order and burning down a game should be way down at the bottom of anyone's priority list.
whatever, in my little corner of the wild casinodom this stuff is one of the most difficult issues to contend with.
sometimes it's just a plain and simple matter of your screwed, no other reasonable way around it, far as i know.

Unfortunately, you're right about the practicality issue. But I'm not going to let the actions of a few assholes change the way I am. If I did, it would turn ME into one of THEM.

When I run into someone new who's trying to horn into my game, I will ALWAYS make an attempt to take them aside & reason with them. Most of the time it works, but not always.

 

[Sharky]

hard for me to understand why an AP would pay the ploppies any mind let alone get into verbal matches with them...i actually get a kick, internally, out of the comments and 'causing the whole table to lose' with my play.

i know who the last one standing will be...with a large stack...and who goes home with empty pockets

also, not so worried about "connected" cities as i am about being rolled by some goon's goon after leaving...stopping for gas, buying smokes, leaving a bar, etc.

bottom line: i carry way too much cash to be making enemies unnecessarily

 

[zengrifter]

I was playing a flashing dealer recently and these two guys tried to harass me out of my seat. What a bunch of effing jerkholes. Insulted me and talked to me about counting. If I see them again on a game I'm going to do unto them. :flame:

It was a mediocre session and the dealer corrected herself after about an hour.

Exactly what I was saying about these 'professionals.' zg

From: ZG vs ExCAA

The Lady Luck SB's hair was red. And the Western dealer, where Carl Dick casino manager sat and kibitzed with me, telling how me how silly surveillance was for saying I might be a card counter, while I was HCing - the Asian dealer's name was Yan - I continued to play her after she moved to the Plaza until your "disciplined" crew of famished vampires busted out the game there with a Harlem Globetrotters-like circus. -- Talk about splitting 10s being bad...

 

[zengrifter]

Did they know that you were holecarding? If not, I wouldn't bring any attention to yourself by messing with them. They are much more valuable to you if they don't know who you are. It is also much safer to put them out of business silently instead of using the suicide bomber approach. Something to think about anyway.

Sonny is right -
Use them as unintentional scouts to ID flashers, like I have done. zg

 

[zengrifter]

So, do you mean they knew you were a counter and they were trying to put some heat on you to force you to comply?

THAT is EXACTLY what he means. zg

 

[zengrifter]

Be careful with that. In Chicago, Detroit, or South Philly that might get you killed.

He didn't learn that wiseguy talk from moi.

I was playing a flashing dealer recently and these two guys tried to harass me out of my seat. What a bunch of effing jerkholes. Insulted me and talked to me about counting. If I see them again on a game I'm going to do unto them. :flame:

Shut the f**k up. z:laugh:g

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

And absolves hole carders of guilt?

What guilt? You're not doing anything illegal hole carding. It's the casino being stupid and lazy.

Maybe my reading comprehension is off, but I read that as the guilt of ratting out a counter by using the rationale that they're not really APs anyway.

 

[QFIT]

Maybe my reading comprehension is off, but I read that as the guilt of ratting out a counter by using the rationale that they're not really APs anyway.

Exactly

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

THAT is EXACTLY what he means. zg

Didn't he say he was playing a flashing game? I'd be shocked to hear that AM was playing a flasher and somehow decided to count instead. Some HC players will bring up counting to try and make a player feel uncomfortable at the table and leave, without drawing attention to the real play taking place (that they want to be in on).

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Didn't he say he was playing a flashing game? I'd be shocked to hear that AM was playing a flasher and somehow decided to count instead. Some HC players will bring up counting to try and make a player feel uncomfortable at the table and leave, without drawing attention to the real play taking place (that they want to be in on).

That's exactly how it went down. It is indeed very illogical- if you see an AP sitting in a seat that's being exposed to, there's a strong probability that he's HC'ing.

Also illogical in that they kill their own jobs that way. I played until I got my fill, they didn't get to play at all, nor will they ever get to share an opportunity with me now. That's some kind of hubris, to see an unknown AP in a seat and assume that he can never help you as much as he hurts you by being in one seat for one shift.

 

[pit15]

Maybe my reading comprehension is off, but I read that as the guilt of ratting out a counter by using the rationale that they're not really APs anyway.

So in that case they're ****ing themself more then the guy they're ratting on.

If your primary game is holecarding, you just killed your own game!

Jeez, these people should be shot.

Yeah, I would say someone who sees that the dealer's down card is a 4 when there's a 6 up and doesn't play the hand differently is not an AP, but I'm sure any winning counter can figure out that they need to do something different if they're seeing the hole card.

If I saw a known counter (and I would personally confirm first) playing at a flasher's table NOT playing the hole card information because he's not capable of reading that game, I'd ask him to step away from the table to talk during a shuffle or something. And of course I'd offer to signal the information in exchange for the seat. If they decline then I'd just assume they're an idiot (and then I WOULDN'T consider them a real AP, because no real AP turns down the chance to play a blackjack hole card game). If they decline then I leave. And I would have to be 100% certain they were a counter before I talk to them about the play. I'd probably watch (and count along) for a few shoes before making any kind of decision.

Most good APs are willing to work with others as long as they're not stupid and not drawing loads of heat onto the game.

 

[QFIT]

So in that case they're ****ing themself more then the guy they're ratting on.

If your primary game is holecarding, you just killed your own game!

Jeez, these people should be shot.

And yet there are people posting here that consider them friends and heroes. For years, these people have been attempting to destroy the reputations of nearly everyone in the community, frankly, to destroy the concept of AP, so that they will have the casinos to themselves. They make post after post ridiculing anyone that tries to help the community, because they don't want anyone to help the community. They want the community and the forums to go away.

 

[aslan]

And yet there are people posting here that consider them friends and heroes. For years, these people have been attempting to destroy the reputations of nearly everyone in the community, frankly, to destroy the concept of AP, so that they will have the casinos to themselves. They make post after post ridiculing anyone that tries to help the community, because they don't want anyone to help the community. They want the community and the forums to go away.

A sad commentary, at least on that segment of the AP community.

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

Again, I think the idea here is to intimidate players away from their seat by:

a) Talking about card counting at the table to make a player feel uncomfortable. AM, I'm assuming they knew you were playing a flasher, but why would they talk about HC at the table and burn their own game? Much easier to talk about AP that the casino is already worried about to try and bring heat on the player in the lucky seat.

b) Ratting out counters so that they can get the seat and play the HC. Again, the idea is to expose counters but not expose the HC play.

Both scenarios are obviously ethically questionable to say the least, but I think there was some confusion on AM and pit15's parts that I thought I might be able to shed some light on.

 

[pit15]

Again, I think the idea here is to intimidate players away from their seat by:

a) Talking about card counting at the table to make a player feel uncomfortable. AM, I'm assuming they knew you were playing a flasher, but why would they talk about HC at the table and burn their own game? Much easier to talk about AP that the casino is already worried about to try and bring heat on the player in the lucky seat.

b) Ratting out counters so that they can get the seat and play the HC. Again, the idea is to expose counters but not expose the HC play.

Both scenarios are obviously ethically questionable to say the least, but I think there was some confusion on AM and pit15's parts that I thought I might be able to shed some light on.

and both ways are great ways to get someone to **** with you, or worse. If you're screwing with someone who's making a living off doing this, they might kill you. People have been killed for a lot less. Something to think about before doing something that's already -EV to begin with.

 

[Mike Lea]

BTW, this is how I met the infamous "Stallker" when he first came onto the scene. He tried to horn in and double-bet my hopper game, & when I refused to give him signals he called the pit & had the game destroyed; even though the dealer was working the next day and I ASSURED him that I was leaving town. I've since found out that he's done that to at least one other team.

That's quite a false accusation to be throwing around about a pro player.

 

[aslan]

That's quite a false accusation to be throwing around about a pro player.

I am an outsider, as most of us here are. Are there only two sides to this? Is there anyone who watched what transpired over the years without taking sides and who could give a rational and dispassionate rendition of it? If there is no such person it would then appear that this is one of those things so egregious, so patently wrong, that it forces anyone in the know to take sides, like it or not. And you don't have to be a genius to see which side that favors. So if there is anyone who thinks they can be entirely impartial, let them speak, or if there is not, let us conclude it is what it is, and move on.

 

[pit15]

I think the bottom line here is, you have to think about whether what you're doing is +EV or not.

APs ratting on each other is hugely -EV to both parties, whereas sharing games / information about games can be +EV to both.

Getting a cheat tossed in jail is probably +EV, since they most likely won't be going to a casino ever again (at the minimum for a few years while they sit in jail), and working with them isn't really an option. (I wouldn't even talk to them if I were you.. any kind of association isn't good)

 

[Sonny]

...whereas sharing games / information about games can be +EV to both.

Or it can be -EV for everybody. Be very careful about what information you share and who you share it with. And always keep in mind that you might be giving up someone else's game/strategy too.

-Sonny-

 

[zengrifter]

Again, I think the idea here is to intimidate players away from their seat by: ...

Yes, I do it, with ploppies, or sometimes even paying them to get their seat (not necessarily for HCing.) BUT HC'ers treat counters like ploppies, because "counters are not "real professionals" or some such. zg