Never hit a 12 against a dealer's 2 or 3

[cyclinggimpe]

I think we'd get along fine at the same table! Oh, and don't worry Cyclinggimpe.....I'm one of those "older men."

What! Your one of those men that don't say anything and don't smile? I thought you said you like fun tables?

I'm not saying that I don't like sitting at tables with older men. It just happened that those guys all were older guys. I have sat at many tables with older men; but, they joked once in awhile and smiled (no sour pusses at all). They play Basic strategy and one or two may even count but I don't think it's worth counting as we have continuous shufflers at this casino.

 

[JJcoolL830]

A little venting

Back to the original topic of this post which was (in case we need reminding) players getting upset and/or questioning correct basic strategy plays. I went to the casino tonight with a friend of mine who asked for my advice on a hand... it was a 12 versus a dealer 3. I told him to hit the hand and that it was one of the exceptions to the rule of "don't risk busting if the dealer shows 2-6". The dealer looked at him and said "Don't listen to him, he's giving you the absolute wrong advice on how to play your hand". I couldn't believe it!! I asked him to mind is own business and let my friend play the hand the correct way. He said "I just don't want your friend to get bad advice". I literally wanted to take a strategy card and shove it up his @ss. What does he care how someone plays their hand? ... especially if he doesn't even know what he's talking about. And the worst part is my friend took the dealer's advice, stayed on his 12 and lost the hand against the dealer's 19. What would he have had if he had hit? an 8.

 

[BAMA21]

I'd say that it was time to color up after that dealer move. I can't see why the dealer would want to get involved, unless he had a clue as to what the cards were before he dealt them (just a thought). And I'd think that a dealer with any experience at all would be familiar at least with the proper basic strategy, at least such that he wouldn't make that move out to be an obvious mistake.

And when a friend takes someone else' advice over mine, that is when it is time for the friend to stop leaning on me and make their own decisions.

 

[Mikeaber]

First...Cyclinggimpe......LOL.....no, I'm not one of the statues that sits and glares. I have fun commerserate with the mood of the table. I'm there for entertainment mostly and always interact with the dealers and players and even the pit crew if they are so inclined.

Dealer contradictions to requested advice given:
Happens all the time. Not necessarily a case of the Dealer intentionally giving wrong advise either. Just becasue they know how to deal and make correct payouts, doesn't mean they know much of anything about correct Strategy.

I've had the same thing happen expecially after telling someone to hit a 12 or 16 against a dealer's made hand. Soft hands too are often the objects of contraversy. The dealer contradicts. I don't get mad. I just tell the player asking for advise, "Your money. I've told you what "the book" says. Do what ever you want." And I continue playing. No big deal.

I even had a dealer call the Pit Boss over when I told a table mate to split 4's against a dealer 6. The dealer was livid! YOU NEVER SPLIT "F's". Double maybe, but NEVER SPLIT. Again, I told the player that it was his money, do what you want. He split...in fact, ended up splitting to four hands with those 4's. Doubled a couple of them and the dealer busted. Nuf said.

 

[BAMA21]

I wouldn't leave the table over being contradicted by the dealer in a situation where I was giving solicited advice to a stranger. But I do think there should be a higher standard of respect by the dealer toward a situation where two people are obviously "together". And it is certainly possible for the dealer to give conflicting advice without making comments about the original advice being "absolutely wrong". And if you're gonna make comments like that, at least be responsible enough to know what you're talking about. I wouldn't get up and leave over the dealer saying something like, "I don't agree with the cards that say to hit 12 against a 3. When I play, I stand on that." But as described, the dealer was disrespectful and blatantly wrong. I'd rather be at a table where I feel comfortable with the dealer; and I wouldn't feel that after this episode.

 

[Mikeaber]

Definitely very presumptious of the Dealer in your case Bama. They usually will not do that....if anything, they'll just get stone-faced and deal. I might be inclined to suggest to that dealer that if I've been asked for advice, I'll give it. If I'm not asked, I not give it. I suggest YOU (meaning the dealer) do the same!

Happened this past weekend at AmeriStar. But it wasn't the dealer. A lady I'd been helping for an hour or so drew a pair of fours and the dealer had a 6 (yeah, I know....I'm always catching hell about those damn 4's). I told her to split, but there was another lady at the table who shouted out NO, don't split them, DOUBLE them. I just shrugged my shoulders and forgot about it. Nothing much you can do in those cases. Can't even remember how her hand worked out.

 

[dbldown]

Thanks all

I really enjoyed this discussion. For the most part, I feel very confident about hitting a 12 against a dealer's 2 or 3. The main issue for me is to not let other players (or dealers!) bother me.

I think the other issue here is to choose the table wisely. If the vibe isn't right (and people are sullen, quiet, and brooding, not fun, cranky) then move on.

I'm not the kind of person that has quick come-backs at hand, unfortunately. So I think I will just be the patient, quiet, smiley guy on 3rd base who just grins and bears it. And hopefully that same smiley guy is raking in the chips.

I've seen many dealers give bad advice, and I chalk that up to them wanting people to lose. I think there are a few of those out there.

 

[BAMA21]

Mike, I normally don't have much of a problem with dealers. Quite often I am the only guy at the table tipping; and almost always, I am the one tipping the most. I haven't seen too many dealers who want to get into an argument with me, even when I am wrong, which happens more often than I care to admit.

I did have a situation once where I had an abnormally large bet on the table ($1000). It was me sitting between two other players, with the one to my left (third base) being a $5 flat bettor without a clue on basic strategy. The dealer showed a face card. I ended up with a three-card 17. That really didn't give me that winning feeling; but it was the best I could do. The clueless guy to my left had 14; and he turned to ask my advice. I had been winning a lot; and he knew that, which is why he asked. I told him that it would probably lose either way; but his best chance was to hit. He took my advice and busted the hand with an eight. The dealeer then flipped a two and broke with a ten. My tablemate lost $5; and I won $1000, which was a $2000 swing from where I would have been had he not taken my advice. I immediately tossed a green chip over to him to thank him for taking the card, even though I don't believe in that third base crap. That is the only time I've ever backed my advice with my own money.

 

[Mikeaber]

Bama

There have been a few times someone has asked me for advice, I've given it and then someone else at the table would contradict me. If it is a good hand they are hesitating on, I might offer to buy it from them. That usually settles any argument <grin>. I was actually "sold" a hand like that. The guy next to me had a soft 19 and the dealer had a 6. The dealer hit 17's. I told him to double it and immediately a couple of the others at the table chimed in exclaiming he would be throwing away a great hand! I offered to buy it, he sold it and I doubled it and drew something stupid like a 7 or something. The dealer busted.

Usually, after a couple of instances like that, the dealer and table will leave you alone. If they don't, then just quit giving advice even when asked and play you game.

At the Plaza, the last time I was out there, a guy had a soft-18 and the dealer had 10. He looked at me like a deer in the headlights. I told him to hit it. The guy sitting next to him was a loud boisterous type expert. He informed me that there was not a basic strategy card anywhere that would tell you to hit a soft-18 against a dealer 10. He even offered to bet me $100 on it! I needed a break anyway, so I headed to the gift shop to get a strategy card. Unfortunately, they were sold out so I took the elevator up to my room, and brought back a set of cards I prepared from Wizard of Odds. I gave him the cards and refused the $100 bet he'd made. He didn't stick around very long after that. Should have taken his money.

 

[E-town-guy]

The problem with trying to prove someone that your advice is correct when they're being bombarded with incorrect advice is how do you prove you're correct unless you have a basic strategy card? It can be especially difficult if you were dealing with something like a 12 vs. a 2or3. If they listen to you and hit there's still a good chance they'll bust and then all those loud mouths will chime in and say I told you so. Just because its the correct advice doesn't mean they'll win and therefore if they loose you have to listen to a table full of 'experts' saying they were correct. Its not like you can show them a computer simulation with a 1000 hands of 12 vs a 2or3.

 

[Mikeaber]

Yes, you are correct E-Town-Guy. That's why I state something on the order of "The Book Says", "Or Basic Strategy Says" when I'm asked to help. If they take the advice, fine. If they do not, well, it's their money and if they want to listen to bad advice, that's certainly their perrogative.

I do not take BS cards to the table as a rule. I don't need them. The only reason that I succumbed to the temptation to show the loudmouth up was twofold: First, I needed a break. Secondly, he challenged ME! I admit, I let him get to me and I usually will not allow that. But he was adament about it that I let my ego get the better of me....something I normally do not do.