Newbie (but basic) question

Royam

Well-Known Member
Hi all,

As a quick disclaimer, I'm totally new here and to BJ more generally. I might ask shocking questions and will certainly ask stupid ones. I apologize for this.

I've just read "Bringing down the house", by Ben Mezrich, and found it very interesting (not only the entertaining story, but also the techniques behind it).

After reading this book, I can't help asking myself the following questions, but of course I lack the knowledge/experience to answer them, so I'm posting on this board:

- If you play BJ and lose, why should you play? (I personally don't find it fun to lose money)
- If, on the other hand, you master the techniques I've just discovered (basic strategic, card counting, shuffle tracking, and probably many others), you CAN win. But then, you get barred/back-roomed/ass-kicked...

If I see it right, it's a lose-lose situation... I'd like to hear I'm wrong.

nostra
 

john

Well-Known Member
my response

I like knowing my advantage/disadvantage. I tried poker, and I had no idea if I was playing an advantage game or not. The bj game is always relatively the same.

There are 2000+ casinos in the USA. If I get barred in most of the casinos around here, I'll just move. I don't have any kids or wife so its no problem for me.

It's fun. I can work when I want. No one is telling me what to do (I don't take orders well). Every trip is like a vacation. I'm always on vacation. Now for me, I have the support of my family which makes it easier.

McDonald's pays $7/hr. I used to work for them, actually. I mopped a lot of floors and made a crappy wage. I worked with people I hated. In blackjack, if I don't like the people at the table, I go somewhere else. I have always been a bit of an outcast. Hell, I got my degree in my mathematics but what have I done with it. There are personal reasons for my decision that I won't reveal on this board.

Do you think Phil Hellmuth and Howard Lederer(poker player) like their job? You bet. It's similar but for a bj player we have many more obstacles, in my opinion.

I think a bj player can make more money than a professional poker player, unless you are one of the bests. We are constantly putting money in the circle whereas poker games are generally slower.
 
BJ vs. poker

It's true and the rake is huge in a low stakes game. Very hard to make money when they are raking 2% of the pot, reminds me of 6:5 BJ. And as the stakes go up the level of experience of the other players does too. Poker is not an advantage game, in my opinion.
 

Abraham de Moivre

Well-Known Member
Poker is a Wonderful Advantage Game.

This is the GOLDEN AGE OF POKER.

There are more fish at the table then there has ever been before.
I have put BJ on hold for the time being and spend several hours every day playing poker on-line.

I am getting several hundred per month from the sites in bonus money alone.
I then turn around and double this bonus weekly playing.

I figure once the craze dies and the last fish swims away, the dealers will still be hitting 16 and standing on soft 17 (or hitting it, I can beat that game too).

www.partypoker.com 25% bonus for new account sign-up.
(Dead link: http://www.pacificpoker.com) _www.pacificpoker.com_ $25 for $50 deposit on new account.
(these two sites have the most suckers per table in the known civilized world)
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
Three types of BJ players:

The BAD PLAYERS (losing players) get free drinks and comps while playing. The casinos WANT them to return, so they keep the players happy.

The GOOD PLAYERS (card counters, shuffle trackers, etc.) will win money but will be asked to leave by the casino.

The GREAT PLAYERS will win money and still be welcome to return to a casino anytime. A great player may never be seen by the casino, or they will appear to be a losing player to the casino. Either way they will be able to continue winning money as long as they want.

Another important point to mention is that if a player is backed-off (asked not to play BJ anymore) that doesn't mean he has to stop playing. There are plenty of other casinos, and even other shifts at the same casino, that he can play. Even if he gets kicked out of a particular casino forever he still has plenty of options.

Andy Bloch from the MIT team said that he has been arrested (yes, by the police!) three times and he still doesn't have a problem playing. So a good player can still play despite occasional back-offs, and a GREAT player can ALWAYS play.

-Sonny-
 

Royam

Well-Known Member
Thank you John

Thank you for your answer, John.

Don't get me wrong, it seems great to be able to make a living of having a well trained mind and playing it smart.

Again, I know very little about BJ. I just read this book "Bringing down the house". I found this MIT team impressive, both for the individual qualities of its members and the clever job sharing (spotters calling big players when tables were hot). Then I was a little upset to see that, because the big players won, they got investigated about and all the members of the team ended up being listed by the security agency working for the casinos as counters. As a result, they got barred from many Vegas casinos. Some members of the team were also back-roomed in a more or less unpleasant manner. They moved to other parts of the country, and they kept being spotted and barred very quickly. When trying abroad, one guy even got beaten up pretty badly. Then came the IRS investigations, the breaking in into their apartments to recover the BJ gains and that type of intimidation.

I got the impression that, either you a play "normally" and the casinos f... you because you lose your money, or you play it smart and win and the casinos still f... you, because they do what it takes to scare you off (kind of a looser-looser situation, no?). Maybe I got a wrong image because I naively thought the book depicted what happens in the real world...

Royam
 

Royam

Well-Known Member
Thank you Sonny

Thank you for your answer, Sonny.

As for your distinction between bad, good and great players, I would like to ask you the following. Still referring to "Breaking down the house", the MIT team seemed to have members that were both good players and good actors. Then the organization seemed pretty good too, with some players spotting hot tables and others playing big on the spotted tables, so as not to raise suspicion by having a single player count AND begin playing big when the table got hot.

Nonetheless, all the members of the team ended up being on the black list of counters and barred from more and more casinos, not to speak of other less pleasant adventures (don't want to repeat too much from my answer to John). The impression I got was that, when you're making money, you get spotted and barred.

So how would you say you can move from the "good" to the "great" category of players? Is it just that you are more careful when playing in team? Maybe the relationships between the team members should have remained purely professional (never meet unless in secret places to discuss strategy; for instance, never eat or even have a drink together in casinos, etc.)? Or are you just playing solo? Or are you acting more to conceal your gaming talent? Or are you moving more often from casino to casino? But then, if you move too often, it also reduces the money you can make per time unit...

To tell you the truth, this book gave me both enough interest in BJ so that I research a bit about basic strategy, card counting, etc.. and the paranoia (didn't even dare to post under my real... pseudo! Lol... thought that the guys from Griffin would be checking such boards!). Btw, how do you guys remain anonymous? Just not raising attention at all, or concealing your identity using fake ID, etc.?

Final question: where would you start learning basic strategy and the like (because now I'm lost when I read about "6D, DOA, DAS, S17" (no idea what DOA and DAS mean).

Royam
 

john

Well-Known Member
Andy Bloch ? Is he also a poker player?

Isn't there an Andy Bloch that makes it to the final table sometimes on those World Poker Tour shows? Is that the same guy? I believe that Andy Bloch on the World Poker Tour is a software developer.

I believe I'm a good bj player but not a great one. Not sure I'll ever be a great one because everytime I try the ol' palm the black chip routine, 2 out of 3 times the dealer at the end of my run says, "I'd like the black chips you got in your pocket, too" and I think "shoot!".

I need to read a lot more books on poker to give that game all I have. I'm giving bj all I have, now and it feels good even when I lose, sometimes. What value do some of you guys, particularly Abraham, on those books written by Howard Lederer and Phil Hellmuth ? I believe both of them have websites and are selling their secrets (supposedly) to the masses in their new books.
 

Abraham de Moivre

Well-Known Member
Books

Howard Lederer: Not a lot of substance and way overpriced (if you are going the video tape route).

Phil Hellmuth: pure crap. I wish that every one I play against would read this book.

Good Starting Books: "Winning Low Limit Hold Em" by Lee Jones. "Winning Internet Texas Hold Em" by Mathew Hilger. Lou Krieger has two good beginner books called something like "Beginner's Texas Hold Em Poker". "Killer Poker" and "Killer Poker Online" by John Vorhaus.

Start playing low limit on-line. ABC basic strategy poker can win there at the soft tables and bad players. Learn as you win. Then you can slowly move up in limits as you gain skills.

Then you can add the more advanced concepts in books like "Hold'em Poker For Advanced Players" by Sklansky and Malmuth.

The nice thing about the bad players at low limit on-line is it doesn't really cost a whole lot of money to learn how to play (lessons can get expensive if you are playing $5/$10 live instead of .5/$1.00 online).

It is almost like if someone where trying to learn how to count and had a very low limit blackjack game with such good rules there was positive off-the-top expectation to learn on. Such is the online scene. Basic strategy "ABC POKER" will win you a little (plus the sites give you bonuses), as your skills increase you win more and can advance to more difficult games.
 

Abraham de Moivre

Well-Known Member
What you are doing wrong.

You shouldn't palm black chips. You should be palming off a green chip here and there (4 green chips in your pocket that they will never miss = 1 black chip they know you must have somewhere).

Then when you color up your few black chips, you look like a loser as you walk off with 20-30 green chips in your pocket.
 
The problem with online poker

... is that you never know if you are playing against 6 people or against 1 guy with 6 computers. And you will never know, and the host site has no reason to care. An opportunity to make money = cheats will be present. So hell will freeze over before I play more than dollar stakes in online poker.
 

Abraham de Moivre

Well-Known Member
The Sky Is Falling

If you ever play online at .5/$1 or $1/$2 limits, and see the plays and "strategy" that takes place, then I say "AMEN" to those computer program players. Hope they clone a million of them and they are present at every table!

As you know, the casino instructs their dealers to use secret shuffles that result in you losing more than you should if you follow basic strategy. You shouldn't be playing live BJ either.

Seriously, the sites do have a vested interest against computer programs being used to play. They need to protect the "fairness" of the games or people won't play and they are out of business. The major sites have already implimented software to detect computer play (and the poker computer programs aren't really that great right now anyways!). Cheaters will have their funds seized and so they risk losing all their money. The sites really don't have to pay any one, again, reputation of fairness is what they depend on.

It is far more likely you will run into two players colluding with each other. And when betting patterns, or things look fishy, notify the site about those players. They WILL investigate, and chances are those players will be banned and you won't have to worry about them again.
 

Abraham de Moivre

Well-Known Member
Some E-Mails from Today.

E-mail in my box! Gotta love it!

>>>>From play Memorial Day At Pacific Poker $2/$4

"Thank you for updating your bank details. We can now reprocess your returned wire for $301.67. Please allow 4-7 days for the funds to show in your bank account."

>>>>>From play Tuesday/Wednesday Night At Party Poker $1/$2

"Current Status of Request: PENDING APPROVAL
Cash Out Amount : $400.00.
Date/Time Transaction : 02-JUN-2004 20:12:50 EST."

How could I encourage people to use more of these poker-playing computer programs you speak about?

Reminds me when I first started playing blackjack heavily my first year. I don't know how many people told me that those casinos didn't have all those fancy carpets and lights and gave me all those nice comps for nothing. Nobody can beat the casinos at their own game! Of course, family members really didn't know what to say 12 months later when I had booked over 70k profit.
 
Didn't say that

I don't have a problem with people using a computer to play against me. What I do have a problem with is one guy with 4 computers and a KVM switch playing 4 hands in an Omaha HL game. Sure, $.50/1 or $1/$2 I will play and have done pretty well myself. I'm into Draw. But for me to match my BJ EV I'd have to be playing much higher stakes than that, and at the $10/20 table not only are there going to be few if any fish, but the cheat can pay for his extra boxes and KVM in one session. And that would make me the fish. The potential profit just doesn't justify the risk.

And I know that the sites do claim that they investigate possible partnerships and frankly I don't believe them. It would be too much work to do that, and unless the cheating is so blatantly obvious that it scares players away, nobody is going to realize it. They'll just think they were outplayed or unlucky when they lose.

Now what would be fun... is to get a bunch of people who know each other together to play a friendly and challenging game and hustle the bonuses. If that's possible- I don't know if there are any bonuses that make up for the rake.
 

Abraham de Moivre

Well-Known Member
Further Into Fantasy Land

Short Answer -- The poker rooms are raking $500,000+ PER DAY!!! If cheating gets out of hand, they can kiss that goodbye. They are going to do their best to keep things honest and keep the half million a day rolling in.

Also, they have to protect themselves. The things to make collusion happen can also make it easy for things like credit card fraud (They lose money!!), chip dumping, money laundering, being a conduit for illegal drug money transactions, etc., etc. and this will kill that $500,000 a day golden goose also. So they are going to protect themselves, and you along with it.

Long Answer -- Okay, now we got one guy playing 4 seats at the same table.

SO the guy needs to contact a couple of ISP's and set up multiple accounts, maybe have one computer going thru dial-up even. (try to set up multiple accounts and sit at the same table, go ahead, try it.) The software doesn't allow multiple seats from the same computer/server/IP ADDRESS at the table, you are going to have to use different internet providers at the very least.

Of course, he needs to have a couple of fictious names and address to set up these accounts, it would be kind of a red flag to have all 4 of these "different" guys playing at the same table, living at the same address and having the same real name.

Now to fund these 4 different accounts, you need to set up 4 phoney bank accounts with the fictious names and addresses (banking information must match playing account information) and get the bank to issue credit cards for the account. Playing for high stakes, you will get a call from the Poker Room to verify your identity, so better have a couple of different people around to answer the phone just in case they realize they keep talking to the same person when they call 4 different people. (Oh, yeah -- you are going to need 4 different phone numbers, I mean, how easy would duplicate numbers be to cross check on a computer database?)

So we will ignore that now the guy has 4 phoney identities, 4 bank accounts with these identities, 4 addresses and phone numbers, etc. and isn't there something more lucrative he could illegally be doing with all that rather than scamming a few thousand off some poker suckers, nevermind, poker is the plan!

So he plops his 4 identities down at the table. Now all he has to do is find suckers who are going to play against these 4 guys. The 4 guys who always play together. The 4 guys who never seem to play by themselves. The 4 guys who, if you see one, you see all four, always at the same table, same time. If one quits, pretty shortly they all quit, and when one shows up, the other three aren't far behind. Never play seperately at other tables. Yeah, those 4 guys. You betcha -- I'm going to hop right in and play them high stakes regularly, yep.

Of course, as soon as someone notices some fishy play -- like one guy betting into the other guy raising and then folding -- and colluding crap like that -- 1 e-mail to the Poker Room, just 1 e-mail -- and unlike a real poker room where the poker room manager might notice that he has seen those guys play together sometime in the past maybe -- No, they got a history of every hand that every guy has ever played. And they can pour over that hand history, not think they remember something similar last Tuesday, but actually statistically analyse, and see how often one guy raised and folded with nothing since he has played from DAY 1. How many times he has played with Tom, Dick, and Moe -- How often he raised with nothing when the other guy had the nuts and was able to re-raise -- with the advantage of seeing ALL the cards, ALL the times, no matter when any of the players mucked.

At this point, it doesn't matter if it is 1 guy or 4 real guys colluding -- 2 of your 4 guys just had all their funds seized. You lost half your team, hope 1 of those guys wasn't the one that had the major winnings dumped on -- you just lost it. Better get busy setting up some new addresses, phones, bank accounts, etc.

Oh, and if you are playing really really high stakes at one of the majors -- you will get a phone call from the card room manager to check you out -- and you don't need to worry waiting for some one to report collusion -- the games are monitored automatically.
 

Abraham de Moivre

Well-Known Member
Something REAL to Worry About.

You cash out at your local casino. Carefully count your big win at the cage, stick it in your pocket and go get something to eat.

On your drive home an hour or two later, about a mile down the road from the casino, you stop at a red light.

A car behind you doesn't seem to be paying attention and manages to lightly tap your back bumper as you are stopped at the light. You carefully look in your rear view mirror at the lone occupant in the car behind you. "What the hell!", you mutter as you get out of your car to check the damage.

Suddenly, about 3 guys emerge from the car that had pulled up previously in the lane beside you. You find yourself staring down the barrel of a gun. "What the hell!" you mutter again, standing in the middle of the street, watching your car, bankroll, and the other two cars roar down the road out of sight.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
Team methods

> Still referring to "Breaking down the house", the MIT team seemed to have
> members that were both good players and good actors.

I have not read the book, but from the interviews and footage of them playing in the documentary "The Hot Shoe" it seemed like the acting was pretty poor. I do not want to comment on the entire MIT team, but the small amount of playing that I saw from those three players looked pretty poor. I'm not surprised that they were barred.

> Then the organization seemed pretty good too, with some players spotting hot
> tables and others playing big on the spotted tables, so as not to raise
> suspicion by having a single player count AND begin playing big when the
> table got hot.

This type of team play has been going on for DECADES! Ken Uston published at least four books describing this method in detail back in the 70's. The casinos are well aware of this method. This method of team play is, as Tommy Highland said, "a bit obsolete" these days. Also, unless your BP is placing HUGE bets, you are better off using different methods team play. The old BP method is overused and often under-performing.

> So how would you say you can move from the "good" to the "great" category of
> players? Is it just that you are more careful when playing in team?

Yes.

> Maybe the relationships between the team members should have remained purely
> professional (never meet unless in secret places to discuss strategy; for
> instance, never eat or even have a drink together in casinos, etc.)?

Yes.

> Or are you just playing solo?

Probably, yes.

> Or are you acting more to conceal your gaming talent?

Yes.

> Or are you moving more often from casino to casino?

Yes. As you can see, there are MANY ways to improve the techniques that the MIT team used. Again, I don't want to belittle the entire MIT team - only the few players that I saw.

> But then, if you move too often, it also reduces the money you can make per
> time unit...

This is not completely true. If you only play for 1 hour in each casino you will be spending more time traveling and less time playing, but if you play for 2 hours you may get kicked out. You will make MUCH more money by playing 1 hour every week than only 2 hours in your life. As I said before, the GREAT players will be able to win the money and still be welcome to come back the next day.

> ...and the paranoia (didn't even dare to post under my real... pseudo! Lol...
> thought that the guys from Griffin would be checking such boards!).

Well, the Griffin folks may not be lurking here but the casino employees often do. If they can somehow link your posts to athe person who plays in their casino they will take action. I'm sure that the parinoia among counters is overblown, but in this businiess it PAYS to be safe and not sorry.

> Btw, how do you guys remain anonymous? Just not raising attention at all, or
> concealing your identity using fake ID, etc.?

Both, actually. There is a good thread about using fake IDs below somewhere. If you play for big money, there is no way that you will not be seen. You either have to play small enought to fly under the radar (the radar is at different levels at each casino) or have an alias ready for when you get spotted.

> Final question: where would you start learning basic strategy and the like
> (because now I'm lost when I read about "6D, DOA, DAS, S17" (no idea what DOA
> and DAS mean).

Here's a quick rundown:

H17 = Hit soft 17 (dealer must hit a soft 17)
S17 = Stand on any 17 (dealer must stand)
DOA = Double On Any first two cards
D10 = Double on 10 or 11 only
DAS = Double After Splitting is allowed
RSA = Re-Splitting Aces is allowed
ESR = Early Surrender
LSR = Late Surrender

Check out the "Blackjack Links" section of this website for more info on basic strategy. And don't forget to post here with any more questions!

-Sonny-
 

Royam

Well-Known Member
Thank you Sonny

Thank you for your answer Sonny, many good tips in there.

I bought a book yesterday night. As I could not find any of the books in The Mayor's reading list, I bought a beginners' book that explains basic strategy and card-counting.

I have read the first half and basic strategy seems pretty straightforward. I will read the rest about card-counting tonight, but there is already one thing I would like to ask.

The basic strategy tables are based on probabilities, right? If it is so, and given the fact that the players also card-count, how is it that the count is not taken into consideration to adjust the tables? I mean, if the count is high, the odds are high that the player/dealer get a 10 and this should change the tables, no?

Royam
 

suicyco maniac

Well-Known Member
what book???

If Eliot doesn't recomend your book it might be because it is full of voodoo... Jerry Pattersons Target comes to mind. SM
 
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