Next big step?

[standard toaster]

Hey this is my first post but i have been reading every thread for the last couple weeks.
Anyway ive always had a massive intrest in gambling and any type of advcantage i could create. Ive played poker for about 5 years.. by played i mean like it was a religion and i was at every mass and jesus class i could get to. In 3 years I could play without even looking at my cards and made almost 1000% on my online deposits. Anyway i payed for my college andbought a corvette now I got bored and need a second game while at the casino.

So i began researching card counting and mastering bc but lost intrest after some time. I stopped for a while then it happened... Im not going to lie my gf made me see 21 and it got me hooked. (I dont need anyone telling me what they had and how its very togh and all that i know trust me)
So i started just counting down decks. Started off bad.. really bad. I saw a video of a guy who did it in 26 seconds and i thought thats crazy it will take forever to get like that... well three days later i had it down to 23 sec (the fastest i can flip them is 20.6 sec.
I researched all the mathmematics of the game (i love that stuff... i was big on the math in poker) and got pretty good. Just today i found myself doing sims on my dining room table for 5 hours today, keeping track of all my stats. I can count all 6 perfect with pretty much a skim over the table now.
Then did a bunch online afterwords.

Finally i have an account strictly for gambling and right now i only have 650 in it but can contribute about 300 a week to it. I plan on hitting up turning stone casino 6decks s17 das all the good stuff with a $5 min.
(i can only play there since im only 19)

What roll do you guys think it will be safe to go for the first time with? I know 3,000 but the wait is killing me.

What should my next step be? ive read everything is all thats left to go out and play?

 

[standard toaster]

and pleaseee for the love of god lets not bring the kids seeing 21 and thinking its easy :flame: im realistic and have been in the busniess for a while :celebrate
witht hat said im glad to be here you guys seem very informative and look forward to everything offered here

 

[rukus]

good news: sounds like you've got the "counting" part down pretty well (by the way, if instead of flipping cards, you just turn the deck over and push the cards with your thumb from left to right or vice versa, you can cycle through a deck much quicker and get down below 20 sec). also, make you sure you can count down 6 decks worth of cards, or stack a single deck with lots of low cards at the front, then high cards at the front - you want to make sure you are just as quick at very high counts (and low, if you play through negative counts, but thats a whole other story).

bad news: that's the easy part.

i would say your next step is to 4-fold (though the last two are related):
1. learn basic strategy if you have not already. know this COLD. you are playing this strategy probably 98% of the time.
2. learn strategy deviations (or indices as you might have read in previous posts) for your count so that you can vary your play based on your system's count.
3. learn how to bet according to your count
4. learn about risk and bankroll management - here is where all the math comes into play. if youve got a good handle on basic statistics you should be fine here.

blast away with questions on any of these topics, but it might be best if you also specify your count system used since i dont think you mention that.

to answer your bankroll question - if you are playing $5 min bets, and spreading (see points 3 and 4 above) 1-15 (ie $75 dollar max bet), you probably do need about 2k to bring your risk of tapping out during a long weekend of play down to a reasonable level.

(and 5 - learn that you wont win all the time even while counting perfectly. expect big swings in bankroll. also internalize this: http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/wontwin.html . if you are still hooked, go back to step 1.)

rukus

 

[standard toaster]

good news: sounds like you've got the "counting" part down pretty well (by the way, if instead of flipping cards, you just turn the deck over and push the cards with your thumb from left to right or vice versa, you can cycle through a deck much quicker and get down below 20 sec). also, make you sure you can count down 6 decks worth of cards, or stack a single deck with lots of low cards at the front, then high cards at the front - you want to make sure you are just as quick at very high counts (and low, if you play through negative counts, but thats a whole other story).

bad news: that's the easy part.

i would say your next step is to 4-fold (though the last two are related):
1. learn basic strategy if you have not already. know this COLD. you are playing this strategy probably 98% of the time.
2. learn strategy deviations (or indices as you might have read in previous posts) for your count so that you can vary your play based on your system's count.
3. learn how to bet according to your count
4. learn about risk and bankroll management - here is where all the math comes into play. if youve got a good handle on basic statistics you should be fine here.

blast away with questions on any of these topics, but it might be best if you also specify your count system used since i dont think you mention that.

to answer your bankroll question - if you are playing $5 min bets, and spreading (see points 3 and 4 above) 1-15 (ie $75 dollar max bet), you probably do need about 2k to bring your risk of tapping out during a long weekend of play down to a reasonable level.

(and 5 - learn that you wont win all the time even while counting perfectly. expect big swings in bankroll. also internalize this: http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/wontwin.html . if you are still hooked, go back to step 1.)

rukus

I am using the high-low system and was spreading 1-6 in my dining room table simulations since my bankroll isnt quite there yet. You think this is way to low?

I have learning indices as ive been going along. Most of it seems pretty obvious to me but is there a good site to make sure everything im doing is correct?

I completely understand the spread and betting strategy so thats not to big of a problem for me.

As for a strict bankroll...well the years of poker taught me all about that. There have been many times i didnt follow the plan and screwed it up. You would think id figure it out the first time wouldent ya?

As i know "i wont win" I refuse to believe it the long run tells me otherwise. Haha it was a nice little readbut ive been good at taking huge swings.... it took some time but it comes back over time. You cant :cry: in our game.

To tell you the truth the only question that comes to mind is about backcounting and wonging. When everyone backcounts and wongs do you hang around the table or sit at a slot i dont really understand how that works out to well.

Edit:
as for bs..... ive known that for years lol no problems here
and thanks for the just spreading them out tip i like that ideaill probably be able to cut it waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy down now

 

[Sonny]

I am using the high-low system and was spreading 1-6 in my dining room table simulations since my bankroll isnt quite there yet. You think this is way to low?

Yeah, 1-6 will not give you an advantage unless you are only playing positive counts. Since you’re playing shoe games with a tiny bankroll you should be backcounting as much as possible anyway, but it still won't earn much. If you only play +1TC of greater and spread $5-$40 you can probably make $5 per hour. Your risk of ruin will be pretty high but if you can keep adding money to your bankroll you might make it.

I have learning indices as ive been going along. Most of it seems pretty obvious to me but is there a good site to make sure everything im doing is correct?

I used flashcards to learn them, then I use QFit’s Casino Verite to practice them. The program has lots of good drills for learning different aspects of the game.

-Sonny-

 

[rukus]

I am using the high-low system and was spreading 1-6 in my dining room table simulations since my bankroll isnt quite there yet. You think this is way to low?

if you are going to play every hand (ie not leave the table at negative counts), then yes that spread is way too low, i would recommend something like 1-15. but with a small bankroll you should (and it sounds like you have already) start thinkig about backcounting and wonging, and then a spread of 1-6 might be ok, though i like to push things to the max and still try and get at least 1-10 when back counting.

I have learning indices as ive been going along. Most of it seems pretty obvious to me but is there a good site to make sure everything im doing is correct?

you can pick up a copy of CV Blackjack from Norm's site at http://www.qfit.com. there are plenty of drills there to test you knowledge of indices. also simply running through flashcards or filling out blank charts help check your knowledge as well. you are right though, the concept of indices make much common sense. as count goes higher, split more, double more, stand more etc. as count goes negative, vice versa. its just a matter of memorizing those numbers for your system. you can check Professional Blackjack by Stanford Wong to see if you are using a correct set of indices for hi-lo. or you can pick up a copy of CVData (again at http://www.qfit.com) and generate your own indices for any set of rules you want.

I completely understand the spread and betting strategy so thats not to big of a problem for me.

As for a strict bankroll...well the years of poker taught me all about that. There have been many times i didnt follow the plan and screwed it up. You would think id figure it out the first time wouldent ya?

As i know "i wont win" I refuse to believe it the long run tells me otherwise. Haha it was a nice little readbut ive been good at taking huge swings.... it took some time but it comes back over time. You cant :cry: in our game.

good to hear. you need a very tough skin in this game to deal with fluxuations and other human-human interactions.

To tell you the truth the only question that comes to mind is about backcounting and wonging. When everyone backcounts and wongs do you hang around the table or sit at a slot i dont really understand how that works out to well.

everyone has a different method of backcounting, and it really depends on the layout of the casino you are playing at. some might stand and "watch" a roulette table or slot machine that happens to next to a 21 table and drift over to the 21 table if the count gets juicy.

im a fan of two other methods as well -

if im in my "sports fanatic" character, i usually just stand behind a few 21 tables watching the TVs that might be all over the place (this works especially well when the various sports hit their playoff time of the year). i watch the games and the cards at the same time, screaming randomly from time to time. it's a win-win for me .

you can also just appear to be curious and watch others play at a partially empty table. if the count gets good make some type of comment like, "oh this does look fun afterall, let me have a go" and hop in.

finally, some people don't like to backcount at all and just wong-out at a low enough count. for instance, some people will sit for the beginning of a shoe and continue playing as long as the true count does not drop below -1 or -2 or something. this is ok, though you do end up spending a majority of the time still playing minimum bets in nuetral territory.

Edit:
as for bs..... ive known that for years lol no problems here
and thanks for the just spreading them out tip i like that ideaill probably be able to cut it waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy down now

no problem. one other thing i forgot to mention in my first post - can you convert to true count properly and efficiently?

 

[standard toaster]

Hmm now that you mention it 1-6 does seem way low i was leaning more towards a conservative style of play until i can have a roll over 1k.
actually that might be at the end of the week.... hmmm

ok so lets say i have a spread of say 1-12 with backcounting and wonging out at a count of -2 as planned before

would my spread look something like this?

0-0
1-1 if i dont backcount
2-3
3-4
4-6
5-10
>6-12?
that wuld be a $5-$60
? maybe add in another level?

converiting to true count isnt a problem either im a little slow sometimes but nothing that will ruin my count or anything so in a few days it should be cake.



I actually already have QFit’s Casino Verite but its only the demo version. It replaces all 5s with js right? I guess ill have to purchase it


In my casino the tables are kind of far from everything but i might be able to find the fruit wheel of fortune to just drop a buck on every spin until i get a good count

 

[rukus]

sonny beat me to it...

Hmm now that you mention it 1-6 does seem way low i was leaning more towards a conservative style of play until i can have a roll over 1k.
actually that might be at the end of the week.... hmmm

ok so lets say i have a spread of say 1-12 with backcounting and wonging out at a count of -2 as planned before

would my spread look something like this?

0-0
1-1 if i dont backcount
2-3
3-4
4-6
5-10
>6-12?
that wuld be a $5-$60
? maybe add in another level?

probably look something like:
<-2: 0 units
-2<TC<2: 1 units
2: 2 units
3: 4 units
4: 8 units
5: 10 units
6: 12 units

can't quote you a risk of ruin with that ramp at the moment since im not by my spreasheets or cvbj. can do later if you want.

I actually already have QFit’s Casino Verite but its only the demo version. It replaces all 5s with js right? I guess ill have to purchase it

yes, it is a phenominal piece of software, worth every penny.

In my casino the tables are kind of far from everything but i might be able to find the fruit wheel of fortune to just drop a buck on every spin until i get a good count

NO! a dollar per spin??? youd be wasting more money backcounting than you could ever hope to make back while actually playing given your current bankroll, especially if sonny's number is correct - think about it - you could expect to make $5 hour playing blackjack while wonging. not sure what the EV is on the wheel of fortune game, but youd be wagering a dollar probably every 30 seconds or so for about a third of every hour you spend backcounting/counting. i would recommend *maybe* making a bet every few minutes or really jsut watching. plenty of people stand around casinos watching random games being played without participating so you wont look out of place not putting down a bet.

 

[Unshake]

Anyway i payed for my college andbought a corvette now I got bored and need a second game while at the casino.

Finally i have an account strictly for gambling and right now i only have 650 in it but can contribute about 300 a week to it. I plan on hitting up turning stone casino 6decks s17 das all the good stuff with a $5 min.
(i can only play there since im only 19)

If you really bought a $40,000+ car and payed for your college tuition with gambling winnings, I think it would be worth it to play keep playing poker until you build a decent bankroll of around at least $2000 (more would be better). Your hourly rate with that bankroll is going to be incredibly low even with back counting/optimal betting. I mean $650 has to be like 2 months insurance for a 19 year old driving a corvette...

 

[Bojack1]

Hey toaster I hope your deck estimation is pretty good, because you would then realize Turning Stone is all 8 decks not 6 like you said earlier. The high limit area has 2 and 6 deck games, but thats it. With your bankroll you shouldn't be seeing those games at all yet. Just wanted to make sure you didn't make a mistake right off the bat.

 

[standard toaster]

If you really bought a $40,000+ car and payed for your college tuition with gambling winnings, I think it would be worth it to play keep playing poker until you build a decent bankroll of around at least $2000 (more would be better). Your hourly rate with that bankroll is going to be incredibly low even with back counting/optimal betting. I mean $650 has to be like 2 months insurance for a 19 year old driving a corvette...

Well its not a new corvette it was my "lifelongdream car" lol a stingray. Its an 82 im getting it to perfect condition now and insurance is only 300 a year collectors insurance so its not as big a deal as it seems

about turning stone i havent been there in a while and i didnt even realize that i always thought it was 6 deck.... that sucks i mean estimating 8 isnt a problem but thats def a downer

 

[standard toaster]

Hey toaster I hope your deck estimation is pretty good, because you would then realize Turning Stone is all 8 decks not 6 like you said earlier. The high limit area has 2 and 6 deck games, but thats it. With your bankroll you shouldn't be seeing those games at all yet. Just wanted to make sure you didn't make a mistake right off the bat.

wheredid you dfind that out? do you live around ny?

edit:
i actually just called and they said they have 8 6 and 2
6 deck = 100 min
2= 200 min
8= 15 min

they got rid of their 5 min on blackjack.... looks like im screwed till im 21 now... not cool

 

[rukus]

they got rid of their 5 min on blackjack.... looks like im screwed till im 21 now... not cool

plenty of time to practice and read up on everything. and more importantly, plenty of time to build a bankroll...

 

[standard toaster]

what would you think about wonging in at the 200 min 2 deck game at a count of +5 and > with a br of 3k:joker:

 

[mjbballar23]

what would you think about wonging in at the 200 min 2 deck game at a count of +5 and > with a br of 3k:joker:

id say that you were crazy. Risk of Ruin = 42% (see below). Oh and adjusting the Pen and rules will do almost nothing in terms of ROR. You simply cant afford to bet 6.66% of your bankroll on one hand of BJ.

 

[standard toaster]

id say that you were crazy. Risk of Ruin = 42% (see below). Oh and adjusting the Pen and rules will do almost nothing in terms of ROR. You simply cant afford to bet 6.66% of your bankroll on one hand of BJ.

only a ror of 42? i thought it would be more thn that hahah i know it would be crazy i was just being dumb and throwing it out there

but i did learn i need to get to that program right away

what is it called?

 

[mjbballar23]

only a ror of 42? i thought it would be more thn that hahah i know it would be crazy i was just being dumb and throwing it out there

but i did learn i need to get to that program right away

what is it called?

CVCX (http://www.qfit.com) and yes this software is excellent. Just messing around with it for a few hours will teach you a good deal about the game.

 

[rukus]

in addition to high ROR...

you'd only be playing like 5-10% of the time as well, thats about 5-10 hands for every hour you backcount. and good luck jumping into the middle of a double decker round.