On Moderated Sites and Yahoo's CCC

[The Mayor]

Dear group,

Lately there has been a meltdown at several Internet web sites devoted to holding discussion groups focused on Blackjack. First there was the problems at bj21 that forced them to close their free pages. Then the fully moderated status at rge21 that recently saw the moderators openly flaming published and respected individuals, followed by cross flames occuring on different web sites. In October, there were posts at this site that forced security measures to be put in place as well that restrict posting (e.g. you cannot be using an anonymous IP). And now, it seems, it is Yahoo's Card Counter Cafe's (CCC) turn.

On 11/20 the CCC changed to a fully moderated status. I would personally like to ask CCC to reconsider this move. Freedom of speech is the most precious right we have. My experience with rge21 (the only other fully moderated site) is that they do not hear the very clear information about the weaknesses of their site precisely because they do not allow public discussion of those issues. If a site needs to grow, it also needs the full participation of its membership in discussions concerning its growth -- and that can be tough.

For example, rec.games.blackjack.moderated was ultimately shut down due to a law suit (by Doug Grant) because his posts were not being acceptd. That is how dangerous this step is! CCC and Yahoo are subjecting themselves to litigation from those who feel they have been unfairly censored.

And thus, it is my firm belief that this is not an appropriate step for CCC at this time, and I ask the moderators and those in charge to reconsider this step. Silencing public debate at a time of change is not the way to work out the current problems, please reconsider.

Best,

--Mayor

 

[Abraham de Moivre]

My stupid opinion

I think this site has the potential to be THE site for blackjack discussion.
bj21 free pages have contained what you find underneath a garbage can for the past several years.
rge21 has it's own philosophy, and it is not about sharing knowledge.
CCC is too much about ego stroking, and has poor software for a discussion.

This site could be the best. Everyone here seems to be friendly, polite, and actually interested in BJ, not who is more 'respected' than who. The Mayor seems to be keeping a good handle on things.

Let's spread the word -- this is THE SERIOUS BJ site.

 

[zengrifter]

The Yahoo!CCCafe's New 'Totalitarian-Protocol' ?

From: zengrifter
Subject: The Yahoo!CCCafe's New 'Totalitarian-Protocol' ?
To: [email protected]
---------------
4th Notice (CC.com)*
---------------
As of the evening of 11/20/02 the Yahoo!CCCafe took on a decidedly DIFFERENT moderating style - when several members of CCCafe began to voice concerns about the current moderator's behavior, and then subsequently engaged in a duly-seconded member's vote, the subject criticsm and votes were removed by one or more of the following CCCafe moderators: John May, Rob McGarvey, THopper, or Ted Forester.

Simultaneously, the operation of the communications and posting functions of CCCafe have been interrupted and altered to require EVERY POST to be approved.

As a principal and major contributor to the subject forum, I must protest and call into question -
1) which (if any) of the CCCafe moderators are in agreement with the new CCCafe 'totalitarian-protocol'?
2) which (if any) of the moderators have authorized the apparent capricious and selective post-busting agenda of late?
3) what was the result of 11/20/02's member vote to remove the 'active' CCCafe moderator?

I urgently invite all concerned CCCafe members to weigh-in on this important community matter and seek answers to the above so that we may assess the continued viability of the Yahoo!CCCafe community and the current selection of moderator(s) appointed there.

sincerely, zg
------------
*This Notice has been posted at CC.com as a matter of public record ONLY - Prior notices have been refused publication at Yahoo!CCCafe by that forum's current moderator(s). Poster specifically requests that ALL discussion of CCCafe affairs be NOT carried on at the CC.com forum - further, the opinion(s) reflected within this Notice relect soley upon the Poster and NOT CC.com or its administrator.
------------

 

[George I.]

moderators

I think that the moderators should have their own domain of discussions on the board, some are better on EV and other on math. A brainstorming you cannot have if each poster tries to take the control of a discussion and also a voting system will make the board very funny,

George I.

 

[The Mayor]

Re: The Yahoo!CCCafe's New 'Totalitarian-Protocol'

I hope the readers really get that I (and this site) remains totally neutral on the issues raised in your post. I am happy to allow the discussion here, however, I will certainly have very little patience if individuals carry their flame wars to new turf.

Let's treat this like neutral territory, you are in the Switzerland of Blackjack sites -- now start figuring it out!

--Mayor

 

[learning to count]

Well Well we are getting off the main theme here: Mathmatical and logical discussions of advantage play.

Mayor with all due respect you do moderate and do censure any BJ mythologies, BJ rubbish and mischevous type posts.

Free speech was originally something for street corner box criers. Free speech is political in nature. It was created so as to "not stop" the common citizen from stating his oppinion for or against the governing powers that be. This and the right to vote are mainstays in our democratic process.

With this we were also given the right to private property and our personal rule over it. This according to great political thinkers such as Locke created capitalism. When we mix our labor with something that we make our own we produce a valuable object that we can exchange for other values; Thus we have capitalism. Capitalism is protected like private property is protected. This site is owned by the mayor it is his property and his valuable item which he chooses to do what he wishes. He has so far made it free for use. No where do I see any issues of freedom of speech here or the mayor to have a responsibility to be the free speech moderator.

If the mayor offered this site for a fee and did not allow someone to state his oppinion then there would be civil issues of fraud and theft.

It is interesting that a web site was sued for restricting someones free speech. I dont know about that situation but in this day and time any one can sue for any thing. I would be interested in seeing the issues in that law suit. It must be based on some type of financiel quarrel. The person in question probably paid to be on the web site that offered posting and then he was not allowed to post or he was deleted due to the owner of the site judgeing his posts not to be the same vain of the site.

This site is new and pure. It needs moderation and it may need censure from time to time. The one thing we have here is the right to discuss what we all love to do: "beat the house". I applaud the mayor and his patience and inginuity in the inner workings of this site. Lets all keep our home here clean and full of intellectual logical theories of advantage play. Oh by the way the mayor does allow "intellectual" endeavors on the non bj page. Zengrifters article on intuition was very interesting and edible. This just my oppinion and I hope I am allowed to give it. I love this site because even a begginer like me can learn to count.

 

[joe_r_black]

Re: The Yahoo!CCCafe's New 'Totalitarian-Protocol'

I think when the sole postbuster and moderator is left, after deleting other people's posts, with 60% of the posts orginating from the mederator that it is safe to say there is no longer any discussion going on on the discussion board.

 

[learning to count]

Re: The Yahoo!CCCafe's New 'Totalitarian-Protocol'

Good point. But is was bad manners that ended the free pages at BJ21.

 

[zengrifter]

Where CCCafe may have gone wrong...

... was its lack of TOS or guidelines that posters and moderators could mutually agree and rely upon. zg

 

[Rob McGarvey]

Dear group,

"Lately there has been a meltdown at several Internet web sites devoted to holding discussion groups focused on Blackjack. First there was the problems at bj21 that forced them to close their free pages. Then the fully moderated status at rge21 that recently saw the moderators openly flaming published and respected individuals, followed by cross flames occuring on different web sites. In October, there were posts at this site that forced security measures to be put in place as well that restrict posting (e.g. you cannot be using an anonymous IP). And now, it seems, it is Yahoo's Card Counter Cafe's (CCC) turn.

Hello Eliot. You are taking some rather brave steps into this issue. You will find that once you hang the sign moderator around your neck it is open season on you. The present situation started because someone reported to me that my posts were being taken down here. I know from a phone conversation that I had with you that a number of posts were taken down that were posted by this member (remember the threat and threatening to post someones picture on Yahoo) and mentioned it to him. Go take a look at where it went from there.

I think board politics and personality issues should take a back seat to what the board is there for. That is what is happening now. I too have failed (as you just have) to stay out of these areas.

"On 11/20 the CCC changed to a fully moderated status. I would personally like to ask CCC to reconsider this move. Freedom of speech is the most precious right we have. My experience with rge21 (the only other fully moderated site) is that they do not hear the very clear information about the weaknesses of their site precisely because they do not allow public discussion of those issues. If a site needs to grow, it also needs the full participation of its membership in discussions concerning its growth -- and that can be tough.

I understand these issues very well, but there is a limit. A blackjack board is there to learn about blackjack, not about highschool politics or about hurting peoples feelings.

"For example, rec.games.blackjack.moderated was ultimately shut down due to a law suit (by Doug Grant) because his posts were not being acceptd. That is how dangerous this step is! CCC and Yahoo are subjecting themselves to litigation from those who feel they have been unfairly censored.

If you take a look at the Yahoo agreements you will see that the moderator has certain rights. Actually obligations.

"And thus, it is my firm belief that this is not an appropriate step for CCC at this time, and I ask the moderators and those in charge to reconsider this step. Silencing public debate at a time of change is not the way to work out the current problems, please reconsider.

Let the public debate be done here then if you feel this way. We've been over it numerous times and it is getting old.

Best,

--Mayor

 

[Rob McGarvey]

Re: My stupid opinion

"I think this site has the potential to be THE site for blackjack discussion.
bj21 free pages have contained what you find underneath a garbage can for the past several years.

Yes, I think this site is fantastic. You can keep off topics on the second board, and it is focused on blackjack. When you respond to a message only the person that you respond under gets it in their email so the group doesn't get every message sent to them.

"rge21 has it's own philosophy, and it is not about sharing knowledge.
CCC is too much about ego stroking, and has poor software for a discussion.

Agree, agree, agree.

"This site could be the best. Everyone here seems to be friendly, polite, and actually interested in BJ, not who is more 'respected' than who. The Mayor seems to be keeping a good handle on things.
Let's spread the word -- this is THE SERIOUS BJ site.

This board is in it's infancy and there is a lot of new excitement. I hope we can keep this site happy and homie and watch it grow.

 

[Rob McGarvey]

Re: The Yahoo!CCCafe's New 'Totalitarian-Protocol'

I will simply say this: moderators are not voted into or out of office on boards. Anyone can open a board, join it, or leave it.

 

[Rob McGarvey]

Re: moderators

"I think that the moderators should have their own domain of discussions on the board, some are better on EV and other on math. A brainstorming you cannot have if each poster tries to take the control of a discussion and also a voting system will make the board very funny,

George I.

Very well said.

 

[Rob McGarvey]

Re: The Yahoo!CCCafe's New 'Totalitarian-Protocol'

"I hope the readers really get that I (and this site) remains totally neutral on the issues raised in your post. I am happy to allow the discussion here, however, I will certainly have very little patience if individuals carry their flame wars to new turf.

I think that is what you want, but it is very hard to start a discussion with your own opinion on a subject and remain neutral. ;>

"Let's treat this like neutral territory, you are in the Switzerland of Blackjack sites -- now start figuring it out!

--Mayor

What a concept. The Swiss tell you the Germans wouldn't attack them because every man had a rifle and was a sharp shooter. I have also heard it was simply because they were hording pulled gold teeth, wedding rings, and other riches. I know you Mayor from one conversation, and know you are neutral, but the Swiss, Germans, and all of their allies can turn your house into a war zone.

 

[Rob McGarvey]

Re: Where CCCafe may have gone wrong...

"... was its lack of TOS or guidelines that posters and moderators could mutually agree and rely upon. zg

They are all there in the Yahoo! agreements.

 

[Rob McGarvey]

Re: The Yahoo!CCCafe's New 'Totalitarian-Protocol'

"I think when the sole postbuster and moderator is left, after deleting other people's posts, with 60% of the posts orginating from the mederator that it is safe to say there is no longer any discussion going on on the discussion board.

You may be right, but now it is 100% BJ. What is missing is the off topics, political infighting, and personality clashes. Someone said the board is dead and to come on over here where BJ in alive and well and living in Switzerland ;> Important to stick with blackjack, and let the other things sliiiiiiiide. If people want gosip and politics, watch the evening news, or start your own board as the Mayor has.

 

[Rob McGarvey]

"Well Well we are getting off the main theme here: Mathmatical and logical discussions of advantage play.

Yes, dollars per hour this ain't. Add all this to the hours you do play and do the math.

"Mayor with all due respect you do moderate and do censure any BJ mythologies, BJ rubbish and mischevous type posts.

Good news.....

"Free speech was originally something for street corner box criers. Free speech is political in nature. It was created so as to "not stop" the common citizen from stating his oppinion for or against the governing powers that be. This and the right to vote are mainstays in our democratic process.

"With this we were also given the right to private property and our personal rule over it. This according to great political thinkers such as Locke created capitalism. When we mix our labor with something that we make our own we produce a valuable object that we can exchange for other values; Thus we have capitalism. Capitalism is protected like private property is protected. This site is owned by the mayor it is his property and his valuable item which he chooses to do what he wishes. He has so far made it free for use. No where do I see any issues of freedom of speech here or the mayor to have a responsibility to be the free speech moderator.

Well put....

"If the mayor offered this site for a fee and did not allow someone to state his opinion then there would be civil issues of fraud and theft.

No money, no contract.

"It is interesting that a web site was sued for restricting someones free speech. I dont know about that situation but in this day and time any one can sue for any thing. I would be interested in seeing the issues in that law suit. It must be based on some type of financiel quarrel. The person in question probably paid to be on the web site that offered posting and then he was not allowed to post or he was deleted due to the owner of the site judgeing his posts not to be the same vain of the site.

"This site is new and pure. It needs moderation and it may need censure from time to time. The one thing we have here is the right to discuss what we all love to do: "beat the house". I applaud the mayor and his patience and inginuity in the inner workings of this site. Lets all keep our home here clean and full of intellectual logical theories of advantage play. Oh by the way the mayor does allow "intellectual" endeavors on the non bj page. Zengrifters article on intuition was very interesting and edible. This just my oppinion and I hope I am allowed to give it. I love this site because even a begginer like me can learn to count.

An awesome post. All it takes is one criminal, like Sammy Bin Ladden, to start things up, and then you have to do something about it. Sometimes you only have limited resources to work with. Is it 25 million for his head now?

 

[PaddyBoy]

Re: My stupid opinion

as a newbie to this site i agree completely with you.i have posted at bJ21 but it seems there if you say 1+1 is 2,someone will post that you are wrong(probably just to mess).I post a Rge21 but if you disagree with one of the big boys there or say anything that is not 'nice" your post is busted
A friend of mine has posted at ccc but now is fed up because posts do not come up automatically and take a few hours to register.

Yes i think this will be a great site.but for it to rise above the rest there must be concentration on beating the casinos.

I cant stand going to a forum and seeing the most knowledgable people bickering among themselves.It is happening with john May and victor Nacht at the moment and Zen Grifter and CCC.For newcomers this is disheartening.

Mr.A says this can be done,Mr.B says no it cant.Then Mr.As buddies come along with facts and semi facts,likewise with Mr.B.Then Mr.c,d,e,f and on and on give their opinions and in the end they are all creating factions of this belief or that.

Iniatially i thought it was funny but now i think this is seriously jeopardising the respectability of these BJ pros.

In other words let us have meaning discussions and not resort to calling names.Imagine any casino bosses looking at these flames,they must be having a luagh.

Let us concentrate on beating casinos instead of beatinfg each other!

 

[zengrifter]

Of St.Robo and CCCafe (long-articulate-critical)

Rob McGarvey writes -
>>Hello Eliot. You are taking some rather brave steps into this issue. You will find that once you hang the sign moderator around your neck it is open season on you. The present situation started because someone reported to me that my posts were being taken down here. I know from a phone conversation that I had with you that a number of posts were taken down that were posted by this member (remember the threat and threatening to post someones picture on Yahoo) and mentioned it to him. Go take a look at where it went from there. <<
---------------

ZG responds -

Where it went from there was that St.Robo posted at CCCafe that I was "causing trouble" at CC.com. Subsequently, Robo posted at CCCafe that The Mayor had "removed several-dozens of [zengrifter's] posts," which is NOT true yet he refused a retraction of those statements when presented with the truth from Mayor.

Robo has effectively run-off ALL of the remaining knowledge-based CCCafe posters with his semi-lucid posts, and his presence here at CC.com is primarily an irritant to other reasonably-knowledgeable counters, whereas newbies may not properly initially distinguish his homespun-quackery from bonafide counter knowledge and expertise.

The real culpability for Robo's out-of-control behavior at CCCafe may rightly lie with the ineffable John May who essentially placed Rob well above his competence-level as a moderator, and who has never answered or addressed the concerns that the remaining pros have articulated repeatedly at CCCafe regarding the issue of Rob's moderator-competence and multiple previous threats of censorship. In light of the current and continued attacks upon John May's credibility, knowledgable parties are free to speculate as to May's reasoning or lack thereof.

I note as well that Rob has thus far failed to account for or address the criticisms and issues that I specifically posed in my Totalitarian Notice further up in this discussion.

As of this writing Robo is NOT allowing any communication that is critical of him to be placed at CCCafe, though he presumes to post what he wants there (and now here), regardless.

The CCCafe is now Robo's, to the victor goes the spoils, but I know that I speak for several here when I state that Robo's participation in discussion at CC.com makes this a LESS-DESIRABLE venue for quality-discussion.

Robo, as the self-professed "fundamentalist Christian" that you are, you have proven to be very much like many in your genre - hypocritical, arrogant, self-serving, and intolerant - your poor style combined with your apparent lack of discernment-powers and inability to come clean is distasteful and unbecoming of you and bothersome, as well, to many here at CC.com, at CCCafe, and elswhere throughout the BJ web-communities.

sincerely, zg

Ps - included below are the off-the-cuff responses, to my Totalitarian CCCafe notice, from the two senior CCCafe moderators disavowing any knowledge of Robo's recent and continued misbehavior at CCCafe:

---------------------------------------------

- Ted Forester responds -

Ted on Totalitarianism
Posted By: alienated on 23 November 02, 3:15 a.m. in response to: The Yahoo!CCCafe's New 'Totalitarian-Protocol' ? (zengrifter)

As a "socialist/anarchist", at least according to my bj21 profile, I feel compelled to confirm that I am an enemy of almost everything, including totalitarianism. Accordingly, I would never contemplate busting anyone's post.

Seriously, though, this is news to me. Can you reveal anything more about the situation? Is it just a technical change by Yahoo or something more sinister? Certainly, I would be very much opposed to systematically biased treatment of any CCCafe poster.

Regards,
Ted
--------------------------------------
John May responds

Not my doing...

Posted By: John May <[email protected]> on 23 November 02, 4:16 a.m. in response to: Red Ted on Totalitarianism (alienated)

...and I can't believe its Rob or T-hopper. So I guess its a hacker or a system change.

 

[Rob McGarvey]

This is What You are Good At

You have been attacking me since I revealed your criminal past and how it makes you an undesirable team player, which is the main reason you are on these boards. Your moderator status was taken away from you for a good reason. I am not a Saint. My religion has nothing to do with this.

I do not want you to turn the Mayors board into the same thing you have turned the CCC into. Let's agree not to speak to or at each other anymore shall we?