PA casino won't cash out $10k without ID

[shadroch]

This is basically true, but then again; who wants to HAVE to go into a CTR-triggered IRS audit and have to explain things anyway? Yes; it will keep you out of jail, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that there's NOTHING to fear about CTRs.

I have a very old & dear friend from Texas, who is NOT an AP, but a compulsive gambler. After losing several hundred thousand dollars (and his business, and his family, and everything else he owned) in less than a year, he was called in for one of these CTR-triggered audits. Lo & behold, they just happened to have had copies of EVERY SINGLE CTR of his CASHOUTS, but NONE of his buyins. He had to travel back to Vegas and go to every casino to get copies of his losing CTRs and then had to go back & show them to the IRS agent handling his case. You're RIGHT; he DID get things straightened out, but WHAT A HASSLE!

There is something strange about that. I was in a cash generating business for many years, and routinely generated dozens ,if not more, CTRs in the course of a year. When my business was audited, all I had to do is explain my business was a cash business and that was that. The IRS didn't demand I explain every single CTR.
I'm guessing they suspected he was hiding cash in a bankruptcy or something.

 

[pit15]

Op, what you did is a felony. Structuring to avoid a CTR. You shouldn't be posting about it on a public message board and should ask to have this post deleted.

If you don't want a ctr then don't cash more then 9K a day. Don't get cute and try to spread it over multiple cages or shifts. A ctr refusal is going to get you backed off a lot faster then AP and could land you in hot water legally. If you hand over chips to an accomplice to cash don't do it where there's cameras! This shouldn't need to be said but some people will hand the chips over right in front of the cashier

 

[aslan]

Op, what you did is a felony. Structuring to avoid a CTR. You shouldn't be posting about it on a public message board and should ask to have this post deleted.

If you don't want a ctr then don't cash more then 9K a day. Don't get cute and try to spread it over multiple cages or shifts. A ctr refusal is going to get you backed off a lot faster then AP and could land you in hot water legally. If you hand over chips to an accomplice to cash don't do it where there's cameras! This shouldn't need to be said but some people will hand the chips over right in front of the cashier

Does a cash in that includes $7,000 winnings and $3,000 bankroll generate a ctr? If it does, it shouldn't. I would have no compunction about cashing in the $7,000 winnings separately from the $3,000 bankroll investment.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Op, what you did is a felony. Structuring to avoid a CTR. You shouldn't be posting about it on a public message board and should ask to have this post deleted.

If you don't want a ctr then don't cash more then 9K a day. Don't get cute and try to spread it over multiple cages or shifts. A ctr refusal is going to get you backed off a lot faster then AP and could land you in hot water legally. If you hand over chips to an accomplice to cash don't do it where there's cameras! This shouldn't need to be said but some people will hand the chips over right in front of the cashier

No, it is not criminal unless you use it to actually commit a crime (like money laundering or tax evasion) but structuring does create reasonable suspicion to submit you to all kinds of investigation.

 

[shadroch]

No, it is not criminal unless you use it to actually commit a crime (like money laundering or tax evasion) but structuring does create reasonable suspicion to submit you to all kinds of investigation.

Structuring( or smurfing) is itself a Federal crime and the penalty is up to five years, in addition to any other crime like Tax evasion or money laundering.
When my deposits for the night or a couple of nites would add up to anything over $9200, I'd throw in my own money just so I'd avoid the appearence of trying to avoid CTRs.

 

[aslan]

Structuring( or smurfing) is itself a Federal crime and the penalty is up to five years, in addition to any other crime like Tax evasion or money laundering.
When my deposits for the night or a couple of nites would add up to anything over $9200, I'd throw in my own money just so I'd avoid the appearence of trying to avoid CTRs.

Good point. If you have nothing to hide, why hide it? On the other hand, you will need to have good records and evidence to corroborate your offsetting losses when it comes to tax time.

I have a friend who was very high up in the government who went to the trouble of cashing his chips in $5,000 increments. He didn't get caught, but I wonder what would have happened if he had been caught. He won $17,000 at 3CP all at one time so the casino must have known, but apparently they didn't have procedures to question his partial cash ins. Any inside knowledge by anyone in this area would be appreciated.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Structuring( or smurfing) is itself a Federal crime and the penalty is up to five years, in addition to any other crime like Tax evasion or money laundering.
When my deposits for the night or a couple of nites would add up to anything over $9200, I'd throw in my own money just so I'd avoid the appearence of trying to avoid CTRs.

Wait a minute, exactly what is structuring? I just read on the IRS site that it is breaking up a transaction into amounts less than $10K over a day to deceive a person who is required to file a CTR. If you don't take $10K in cash in one day, there is no CTR, so there can be no structuring.

The OP cashed out $9K in one day, went back and played with his chips, and cashed out the rest on another day. No CTR is required. If it was, one could argue that a guy who wins until he has $11K in chips in front of him, and keeps playing until he has only $9500 was structuring.

 

[shadroch]

Wait a minute, exactly what is structuring? I just read on the IRS site that it is breaking up a transaction into amounts less than $10K over a day to deceive a person who is required to file a CTR. If you don't take $10K in cash in one day, there is no CTR, so there can be no structuring.

The OP cashed out $9K in one day, went back and played with his chips, and cashed out the rest on another day. No CTR is required. If it was, one could argue that a guy who wins until he has $11K in chips in front of him, and keeps playing until he has only $9500 was structuring.

Structuring is the act of altering a transaction for the purpose of avoiding a CTR. Plain and simple. This is exactly what the OP did, and it is illegal. Should it be illegal is another question, but any attempt to alter a transaction that would have generated a CTR is illegal.
OP canceled a transaction for the sole purpose of avoiding a CTR. That is the very definition of structuring. As an unintended consequence, he may very well have avoided the benign CTR and earned himself a SAR instead.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Structuring is the act of altering a transaction for the purpose of avoiding a CTR. Plain and simple. This is exactly what the OP did, and it is illegal. Should it be illegal is another question, but any attempt to alter a transaction that would have generated a CTR is illegal.
OP canceled a transaction for the sole purpose of avoiding a CTR. That is the very definition of structuring. As an unintended consequence, he may very well have avoided the benign CTR and earned himself a SAR instead.

According to the IRS, structuring is breaking up a transaction to evade a CTR, not to avoid one. Avoiding vs. evading is a very significant difference in tax law. It's possible that there are officials who would interpret this they way you are, but it leads to all kinds of absurd possibilities, e.g., a car on a car lot is listed for $10,500, but I negotiate the price down to $9,500 and pay for it in cash.

What I would have done in this situation assuming I was not playing anonymously is ask for all or part of my cashout as a check. I suppose someone could make an argument that being unwilling to carry $10K in cash out of the casino into the parking lot was structuring to evade a CTR.

 

[bj21abc]

Why would a check help ? Surely a $5,000 check plus $6,000 cash would trigger a CTR same as $11,000 cash ?

According to the IRS, structuring is breaking up a transaction to evade a CTR, not to avoid one. Avoiding vs. evading is a very significant difference in tax law. It's possible that there are officials who would interpret this they way you are, but it leads to all kinds of absurd possibilities, e.g., a car on a car lot is listed for $10,500, but I negotiate the price down to $9,500 and pay for it in cash.

What I would have done in this situation assuming I was not playing anonymously is ask for all or part of my cashout as a check. I suppose someone could make an argument that being unwilling to carry $10K in cash out of the casino into the parking lot was structuring to evade a CTR.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Why would a check help ? Surely a $5,000 check plus $6,000 cash would trigger a CTR same as $11,000 cash ?

Absolutely not, a CTR is for currency only. Once I won a $20K VP jackpot and requested a check, partially because I didn't need $20K in cash and partially because I didn't want CTR paperwork. No one considered that unusual, but if I asked for $9K in cash because I wanted to keep playing as a high roller and an $11K check, it's hard to believe that would be considered a crime or suspicious activity. But then again, the IRS has never been fair, just, or lawful.

 

[21forme]

Absolutely not, a CTR is for currency only. Once I won a $20K VP jackpot and requested a check, partially because I didn't need $20K in cash and partially because I didn't want CTR paperwork. No one considered that unusual, but if I asked for $9K in cash because I wanted to keep playing as a high roller and an $11K check, it's hard to believe that would be considered a crime or suspicious activity. But then again, the IRS has never been fair, just, or lawful.

They still requested your SSN for a W2G (or is it a 1099?), right?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

They still requested your SSN for a W2G (or is it a 1099?), right?

Yes, that they do on any hand-pay. (>$1200)

 

[shadroch]

Absolutely not, a CTR is for currency only. Once I won a $20K VP jackpot and requested a check, partially because I didn't need $20K in cash and partially because I didn't want CTR paperwork. No one considered that unusual, but if I asked for $9K in cash because I wanted to keep playing as a high roller and an $11K check, it's hard to believe that would be considered a crime or suspicious activity. But then again, the IRS has never been fair, just, or lawful.

Unless the casino decides you are requesting the check for the sole purpose of avoiding the CTR. A business has the right to ask for a CTR at a much lower threshold. I believe it is $4,000. At $10,000 they must get one.
The good news is this law causes tens of thousands of these CTRs a day and the IRS can only look at a fraction of them.

 

[21forme]

The good news is this law causes tens of thousands of these CTRs a day and the IRS can only look at a fraction of them.

the IRS has computers to match everything up. They got me last year for $60 in bank interest I failed to report because I never got the 1099 in the mail.

 

[bj21abc]

that's interesting -

so assuming you don't need the cash, you take a check for $20k and the transaction remains between you and the cashier - does the depositing of a $20k check at the bank trigger anything ?

Absolutely not, a CTR is for currency only. Once I won a $20K VP jackpot and requested a check, partially because I didn't need $20K in cash and partially because I didn't want CTR paperwork. No one considered that unusual, but if I asked for $9K in cash because I wanted to keep playing as a high roller and an $11K check, it's hard to believe that would be considered a crime or suspicious activity. But then again, the IRS has never been fair, just, or lawful.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

that's interesting -

so assuming you don't need the cash, you take a check for $20k and the transaction remains between you and the cashier - does the depositing of a $20k check at the bank trigger anything ?

No. Not unless I cash it and receive currency. This is all about tracking cash, not funds in general.

 

[aslan]

No. Not unless I cash it and receive currency. This is all about tracking cash, not funds in general.

Interesting! So why doesn't everyone just exchange their chips for cash when they exceed $10,000? I suppose, if you're correct, it's because no one knows about this loophole in the CTR provisions. I for one will be sure to ask the cashiers at the next several casinos I visit. I wonder too if this transaction is reportable to the IRS, or lacking that, available for IRS scrutiny. For example, I, the IRS agent, asks you, the casino, for all checks made out to individuals for in excess of $10,000, or some arbitrary amount. I then match them against the person's tax filing. Maybe far-fetched, maybe not.

We need to explore this area fully and hopefully on IRS agents will read any of this. I once beat the IRS on deducting 13 months of mortgage interest in one year, which I have paper showing the US Tax Count ruling in my favor. A couple of years later the IRS passed a "regulation" disallowing the deduction of more than 12 mortgage interest payments in a single year. What?! What the heck is it to them so long as I actually make the interest payments in the year filed!? But they passed the regulation stopping taxpayers from one more way of managing their annual filings.

 

[shadroch]

The point that everyone seems to be missing is that CTRs are not used to track earnings or winnings. They are used to try and detect patterns of money laundering. You may get them after your winning sessions, but it doesn't mean you won $10,000.

 

[aslan]

The point that everyone seems to be missing is that CTRs are not used to track earnings or winnings. They are used to try and detect patterns of money laundering. You may get them after your winning sessions, but it doesn't mean you won $10,000.

True, but more than its intended use may be in play. I believe it is still the IRS who receives the report. You may trust your government, that they will not use this information for other purposes, but I worked for the government for many years, and I am leery. I believe that if they can (legally), they will. Whether or not they can prove that the amount represents winnings, I can't say. But they likely do have the casino's records at their disposal.

On another note---From instructions for completing the CTR:

Multiple transactions must be treated as a single
transaction if the financial institution has knowledge that
(1) they are by or on behalf of the same person, and (2)
they result in either currency received (Cash In) or currency disbursed (Cash Out) by the financial institution totaling more than $10,000 during any one business day. ...For all other financial institutions [other than banks], a business day is a calendar day.

Transaction in Currency. The physical transfer of
currency from one person to another. This does not
include a transfer of funds by means of bank check, bank draft, wire transfer or other written order that does not involve the physical transfer of currency.

I certainly would construe these words to corroborate what AM said above about CTRs applying strictly to "cash" transactions.