pair of fours-split,double em or hit them

S

shadroch

Well-Known Member
In the BJ Zone,it says split them except in a SD game,where you double against a 5 or 6.
KO says to hit them all the time,that the slight difference in different games is negligible.
Whats the cost of misplaying this hand?
 
shadroch said:
In the BJ Zone,it says split them except in a SD game,where you double against a 5 or 6.
KO says to hit them all the time,that the slight difference in different games is negligible.
Whats the cost of misplaying this hand?
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I've always understood it is proper to split 4's against a 5 or 6 when DAS is allowed. Otherwise just hit it. I dont play single deck ,but i would guess it would be proper to double down since DAS is RARELY allowed.
 
Re check KO

shadroch said:
In the BJ Zone,it says split them except in a SD game,where you double against a 5 or 6.
KO says to hit them all the time,that the slight difference in different games is negligible.
Whats the cost of misplaying this hand?
Click to expand...

I do not use KO, but still think that you might have misread things. They may have two charts, one shows strategy for a game where you can not double after splitting and the other where you can double after split.
The rule on 4,4 is that if you can double after split, you split 4,4 vs dealer 5 or 6. If you can not double after split then you would just hit (or perhaps double depending upon the count)

ihate17
 
No,they have a single chart that they recommend you use no matter what game you play.According to the author,the minimal difference you get from memorizing a different BS for various games isn't worth it.

Following is a direct quote Page 27
WHILE MOST BASIC STATEGIES ARE CREATED TO APPLY SPECIFICALLY TO EITHER SINGLE OR MULTIPLE DECKS,IN PRACTICE,WE HAVE FOUND IT BEST TO MEMORIZE ONE GENERIC BASIC STRATEGY TABLE. THIS IS BECAUSE THE GAIN IN MEMORIZING ADDITIONAL VARIATIONS IS VERY MINIMAL,AMOUNTING TO A TOTAL GAIN OF ROUGHLY 0.03% OVERALL.

My question would be-Is this statement true,Do you really lose only three cents on a $100 bet by playing all BJ games with the same BS?
For the recreational $3-$25 players,it would be silly to memorize multiple charts if my math is correct.A $5 player would sacrifice NINE cents an hour,and a $25 player would be losing a whopping TWENTY TWO cents an hour.
 
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That is correct, split 4s vs 5 or 6s if you have DAS. The indexes for DD on 8 v 6 and 5 are +2 and +4 TC respectively.
 
There are "three charts" provided by KO.

"Generic" (pp28) which is a more or less "general BS" that has a lot of corners filed off for ease of use. It indicates hitting the 4's always. Never double them according to KO.

"Simplified" (pp41) is really stripped down. Only split Aces and Eights. Double down rules are double 10 or 11 only if your total hand value is greater than that of the dealer's up card.

The "Full Strategy" (pp162) is a spin on the Generic Strategy. It indicates nothing about splitting 4's. It does give indicies for doubling 8, but nothing about splitting.

There are a lot of minor ommissions in KO in the Strategy charts that as was stated earlier "are not worth the effort to memorize" with the emphasis being on accruate counting.

Personally, I would recommend to anyone who has mastered counting accuracy and speed that you gravitate toward a more detailed BS than that documented in KO.
 
Mikeaber said:
There are "three charts" provided by KO.

"Generic" (pp28) which is a more or less "general BS" that has a lot of corners filed off for ease of use. It indicates hitting the 4's always. Never double them according to KO.

"Simplified" (pp41) is really stripped down. Only split Aces and Eights. Double down rules are double 10 or 11 only if your total hand value is greater than that of the dealer's up card.

The "Full Strategy" (pp162) is a spin on the Generic Strategy. It indicates nothing about splitting 4's. It does give indicies for doubling 8, but nothing about splitting.

There are a lot of minor ommissions in KO in the Strategy charts that as was stated earlier "are not worth the effort to memorize" with the emphasis being on accruate counting.

Personally, I would recommend to anyone who has mastered counting accuracy and speed that you gravitate toward a more detailed BS than that documented in KO.
Click to expand...

Actually, the note about the strategy changes in DAS games are mentioned in a footnote at the bottom of a page. They're in there!
 
Scott,

I see a footnote on page 27 about DAS. Basically, it says that the strategy given intentionally omitted the DAS factor. Is there another footnote that I've missed? The authors apparently consider the changes for DAS to insignificant to bother with. They claim a mere .01% gain with DAS strategy. Personally, I use DAS charts with KO, but that's because I learned Basic Strategy long before taking up KO.
 
The DAS actually carries a .14%+ for the player....a bit more than the .01% stated in KO. It is significant. Consider that dealer standing on soft 17's (one of the more significant rules) carries something like .22%+ for the player. But, the authors of KO do not deem that enough to warrant learning different strategies for DAS than for non-DAS games. I think it's worthy enough to commit to memory...but that's just me.

I do understand what Vancura and Fuchs were trying to accomplish though. Their emphasis is on accuracy and speed in counting and part of that attempt is to reduce the complexity of the more complex Basic Strategy plays.
 
Mikeaber said:
Scott,

I see a footnote on page 27 about DAS. Basically, it says that the strategy given intentionally omitted the DAS factor. Is there another footnote that I've missed? The authors apparently consider the changes for DAS to insignificant to bother with. They claim a mere .01% gain with DAS strategy. Personally, I use DAS charts with KO, but that's because I learned Basic Strategy long before taking up KO.
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I use one generic BS chart for NoDAS and one generic BS chart for DAS. There are only a few changes so it's not that much more info to commit to memory.
 
ScottH said:
I use one generic BS chart for NoDAS and one generic BS chart for DAS. There are only a few changes so it's not that much more info to commit to memory.
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I agree. Such a simple addition to the charts and a relatively huge increase (.14%)

As a matter of fact, most shoe games have DAS rules though more and more DD games are eliminating it (sadly and specifically, Plaza!)

Blackjack rules deterioration Downtown over the past couple of years has made me consider more and more the possibilities of VP. But then, the same deterioration is occurring there as well. Getting hard to find Full-Pay games just as it is getting harder and harder to find BJ games that carry only a reasonable house edge.
 
I've been playing at El Cortez for five years. First trip was Sept of 01. I really haven't noticed any deteration in their games.Plaza and Vegas Club-yes,but not the Cortez.If anything,I think its not as hostile as it once was,and is much more comp friendly.
Vegas Club has gotten worse but if you work their promos right,it still is a good game.Right now they have a $5 matchplay that you earn by getting any five aces as your first two cards.1 out of every 13 cards is an Ace,you should get almost ten Aces dealt you an hour-so you get 2 $5 matchplays per hour on average.For the $5 bettor,it doesn't get much better than that.
 
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Mikeaber said:
The DAS actually carries a .14%+ for the player....a bit more than the .01% stated in KO. It is significant. Consider that dealer standing on soft 17's (one of the more significant rules) carries something like .22%+ for the player. But, the authors of KO do not deem that enough to warrant learning different strategies for DAS than for non-DAS games. I think it's worthy enough to commit to memory...but that's just me.

I do understand what Vancura and Fuchs were trying to accomplish though. Their emphasis is on accuracy and speed in counting and part of that attempt is to reduce the complexity of the more complex Basic Strategy plays.
Click to expand...

I've been using Ko for awhile but with the regular BS. I never noticed the different charts until my sister(who is coming to Vegas with me for her first trip) pointed it out. I can't believe that you can lose so little by using one generic chart on all games. Thats what I'm trying to find out if it is true or not.
 
Well, the point of view of the authors is that you get far more advantage by using KO and just the insurance bet and ramping properly (or even playing KO Rookie) than you will from any variations in the rules (within reason...6:5 is not within reason!). You will definitely make more by using KO with no-DAS strategy on a DAS game than you would by not using KO but playing good BS with DAS. Did that make sense? That's the point of the authors anyway.

As far as the .14% factor.....I'm not sure what the "cost" of playing it wrong would be. The .14% figure is the advantage to the player if DAS is offered versus a game where it is not offered. I would assume that if you played a table where it was offered but you never played it, you would lose 14-cents on every $100 you wagered.

In reality, you do not get the chance to double correctly after a split as often as you might think.

As for "good games"....the last time I commented on specific casino conditions as being good...they changed the rules (speaking of Plaza! Damn their hides!!!) So, no further comment from me on specific casinos on a public forum!
 
Since conditions are pretty constant where I am (6D, H17, DAS), I have no problem using a "dialed-in" basic strategy for that game type.

If you're in a similarly homogeneous environment, I'd recommend that over the more generic strategy in the KO book.
 
EasyRhino said:
Since conditions are pretty constant where I am (6D, H17, DAS), I have no problem using a "dialed-in" basic strategy for that game type.

If you're in a similarly homogeneous environment, I'd recommend that over the more generic strategy in the KO book.
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Me Too! :eyepatch: It's just not that much more to tack on to the Generic strategy.
 
But if you lose 14 cents per $100 wagered,the difference to the $5 bettor is so insignificant that there really is little incentive for a newbie to bother learning charts.
 
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