Play a hand with me!

[tthree]

what about the 5 other players beside him that all act after you? You know your game and your players so i can see you are comfortable with this, but what are you doing with 22 when someone comes over the top at you?

x2

 

[SleightOfHand]

Depends on the situation. It could possibly be a call with an aggro tourney short stacker who squeezes after a few callers, but 90% it's a fold :/

It's also different if it's a reg battle

The thing about playing live in Vegas is that players don't catch on to your tendencies because te players always change. When you play these games, you can see that loose 3 betting preflop is uncommon and 4 betting loose is almost almost only AA and KK (sometimes QQ and AK)

Edit: this is about 2/5, I'm not extremely familiar with 5/10. Also different for 1/2

 

[tthree]

The thing about playing live in Vegas is that players don't catch on to your tendencies because te players always change. When you play these games, you can see that loose 3 betting preflop is uncommon and 4 betting loose is almost almost only AA and KK (sometimes QQ and AK)

Edit: this is about 2/5, I'm not extremely familiar with 5/10. Also different for 1/2

You should hit AC. It is a sea of grey hair. Flinch at your chips and they are ready to fold.

 

[PonyPrincess]

I know this isn't what the topic started as but realistically you are going to lose a lot of money on hands like small pocket pairs and suited connectors UTG at a full table in the long run. Even against total droolers you'd be lucky if they broke even.

It's even worse against people you have no reads on if you think about how unbalanced your range is and how often you miss flops like dry Kxx, Axx are they calling preflop with K7s? Are check folding those flops or are you barrelling two streets? Three? It's really, really tough to make it profitable.

 

[SleightOfHand]

I know this isn't what the topic started as but realistically you are going to lose a lot of money on hands like small pocket pairs and suited connectors UTG at a full table in the long run. Even against total droolers you'd be lucky if they broke even.

It's even worse against people you have no reads on if you think about how unbalanced your range is and how often you miss flops like dry Kxx, Axx are they calling preflop with K7s? Are check folding those flops or are you barrelling two streets? Three? It's really, really tough to make it profitable.

Lol I am cbetting those flops all the time. And yes, following can be a variety of double/triple barrels, check raises,... It all depends whats on the board and the range of hands I am able to represent. Poker is about representing hands, not just playing the ones you have

It's true, my cbetting range is quite unbalanced towards bluffs. However, like I said, this isn't like online where you are trying to balance and polarize ranges. the game I play right now is admittedly quite exploitable, but strongly +ev against players who aren't very good. It's averaging ~27 BB/100, so it can't be that bad

 

[Craps Master]

the game I play right now is admittedly quite exploitable, but strongly +ev against players who aren't very good. It's averaging ~27 BB/100, so it can't be that bad

That's 1 less than 28 BB/100.

 

[PonyPrincess]

This game you're in sounds like a magical wonderland of weak-tight fish. I'm just telling you, you REALLY aren't giving up that much folding stuff like that out of position especially deeper than 100bb's and most likely are losers in the long run.

Maybe I'm just too used to playing online and last time I played for a living live was 6month-year ago and it was 5/10, 10/20.

But even if it was a slight profit after beating the rake (which is extra bad because if it is profitable it's because you're winning a lot of small pots) you get put into **** spots like the OP. How do you play that hand if you have 67h? Maybe everyone is a total drooler in the games you play but against anyone good you really only have sets, KJ, diamonds, AdX or air after the turn.

 

[Richard Munchkin]

Sleight, do you actually count the number of hands you play per session? And how many hands per hour are you getting in live games?

 

[bronco60]

Not sure what it means, but this is the 666th thread in this sub-forum. :devil:

 

[SleightOfHand]

This game you're in sounds like a magical wonderland of weak-tight fish. I'm just telling you, you REALLY aren't giving up that much folding stuff like that out of position especially deeper than 100bb's and most likely are losers in the long run.

Maybe I'm just too used to playing online and last time I played for a living live was 6month-year ago and it was 5/10, 10/20.

But even if it was a slight profit after beating the rake (which is extra bad because if it is profitable it's because you're winning a lot of small pots) you get put into **** spots like the OP. How do you play that hand if you have 67h? Maybe everyone is a total drooler in the games you play but against anyone good you really only have sets, KJ, diamonds, AdX or air after the turn.

Maybe ur right. Its too bad that we cant log all our hands into a database to see win rates lol.

I would play 67h either as a bet/fold flop check/fold turn or just a check/fold on the flop. I have a gutshot, which is not bad to cbet with, but the button is pretty fishy and I prob don't have too much fold equity. The turn hits a lot of his range and I doubt hes ever folding with that turn. I LOVE to play my sets like my straight flush draws, but vs this fish, I didn't think I would be able to get a fold, so I checked it.

Sleight, do you actually count the number of hands you play per session? And how many hands per hour are you getting in live games?

No, I don't count the hands, but I estimate that each hand takes about 2 min on average, meaning 30 hands/hr. The dealers at MGM are pretty decent and they use automatic shuffle machines which speeds it up a bit.

 

[Jack_Black]

Maybe ur right. Its too bad that we cant log all our hands into a database to see win rates lol.

actually, she's right. Assuming ponyprincess is a she! but looking at my holdem manager stats, OOP on small PP has been hit or miss. when it's been hit, it's a relatively small EV rate. Although I will say that on hands that I flopped a set on(doing set mining) my EV isn't bad.

 

[PonyPrincess]

Optimal 10person UTG opening range is probably nothing because if you just want to open AA, KK, AK you gotta balance that with like 12combos of something you can 4bet/fold with (KJ-KQs, AJs probably). But that doesn't really matter in these fishy games, lol.

Anyway your opening range sounds like 25-30% so with 9 people behind you even if people only reraise you with AA, KK, AK I don't feel like doing the math right now but it's at least 25% of the time you have to fold.

 

[blackjacktilt]

Poker and the 3 P's

Poker is about people, position, and patience (My 3 P's). Frequently raising out of position with marginal to poor starting hands will lose you money in the LONG TERM. Poker is long term, don't let a couple of lucky hands steer you from the basics. All small limit to small no limit games are beatable by just playing ABC poker and being patient. You have to mix up your game here and there or adjust to who you are playing with (or just request a table change), but being too aggressive will build your confidence until you get trapped.

 

[1357111317]

SOH, I like your aggression but vs fish, trying to bluff them off any flush here is pointless and depending on the fish type, they wont fold Jx ever. If the fish is paying any attention they will see that you are very aggressive. As soon as they think that they automatically think you are bluffing all the time and will call you down super light. Just start nut peddling vs these players and dont try to make big bluffs on the end vs them.

 

[1357111317]

The reason limping small pocket pairs is inferior, is because with raising, you now have 2 ways to win: catching the set or making them fold with a cbet. This is a game where aggression wins. Maybe for players who just want to play tight with a moderate win rate can fold pocket pairs, but my UTG range includes all pocket pairs and essentially any suited connectors. I may fold if I feel nitty or maybe limp 1/4 times, but these are strong hands and when playing deep, catching draws is where a huge amount of money is made.

Once again, aggression is good, but playing draws deep out of position vs fish who dont fold is a very tough way to make money. Vs good players who can fold its fine but against fish, they just hate folding and thats where you make your money. Hands like 22 33 44, while good when you catch a set, have 0 equity when your cbet is called and have a lot of RIO when you get overset. I'm not saying dont play them, but the deeper you get, the less your cards matter and the more position matters. 200bb deep id take j10s over qq utg.

I'm not saying you should stop playing the way you do, but just think about hands like that a bit more rather than defaulting to "aggression wins".

 

[1357111317]

So, you would just fold it preflop then? Like I said before, I don't have a problem with folding those kinds of hands preflop, but passivity like that is only costing solid players.

FWIW, folding isn't passive. Calling is passive. A lot of really aggressive solid players play relatively tight preflop to insure they can play very aggressive postflop. If you are loose preflop, you can't be as aggro postflop without having super wide and weak ranges in a lot of spots. That being said, you do crush 2/5 but its possible you could squeeze out a couple extra bb an hour if you re-examined your game in certain spots.

 

[creeping panther]

Fish

I cringe when I hear the term Fish. What happens when the Fish turns into a shark at just the right time and bites you bad? Fish ain't a fish anymore:laugh:

I much prefer to watch for those at a table clearly on tilt, and it takes patience, angry, drunk, drugged, emotionally disturbed in any way or one who gives away a playing strategy, like ie. constantly raising pre-flop, bully tactics. Maybe just another form of Fish.:laugh:

Thing that makes me very nervous about Poker is the great amount of luck, and skill, and luck, luck,, one for sure needs to make money, it truly is a gamble

When one thinks they have it all figured out, or lose respect for other players, gets over confident, they most likely will be whacked

I think a rather tight, fundamental player, throwing curves now and then, has a better chance of making money than the hot shots I have run into at the tables, the ones I like to hit, then rack the chips and leave the table without a word and they, shaking their head and lamenting,,,,,,



CP

 

[blackjacktilt]

When one thinks they have it all figured out, or lose respect for other players, gets over confident, they most likely will be whacked

I think a rather tight, fundamental player, throwing curves now and then, has a better chance of making money than the hot shots I have run into at the tables, the ones I like to hit, then rack the chips and leave the table without a word and they, shaking their head and lamenting,,,,,,



CP

Exactly Mr. Panther