playing behind others

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DonFinuchi

Active Member
I have noticed that in primetime hours when the tables are full, that people often place bets behind other players.

Why not just backcount and play behind another player during positive counts only? This obviously requires that you can find a player that can execute BS.

This whay you could flatbet, and thereby reduce variance an BR reqs right?

What are your thougts on this?

Could the fact that one can flatbet also have a possitive effect on heat?
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
Yes, BUT... the problem comes with that you cannot call how they play their hand. A few bad plays in the course of an evening of back betting can kill your +EV. zg
 
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DonFinuchi

Active Member
Well ok. I just thought that all the -EV hands you could avoid playing could compensate for that. But you are probably right.
 
Automatic Monkey

Automatic Monkey

Banned
That's the kind of place you do team play in. Have the play callers signal the big players in and they will be playing proper index strategy as well as basic strategy. For cover, the BP can occasionally place a small bet behind a non-team member.
 
blackchipjim

blackchipjim

Well-Known Member
Chokes on backbets

I backbet when allowed but it has been my demise a few times. I was standing and counting this game and this guy is doing fine and making no mistakes on playing at all. The count is at the level I want and put backbet the guy's hand and guess what happens. He gets nervous and starts playing like an idiot because of the bets. I have had this happen enough times so I just stopped doing it out of frustration. If you find a cool hand luke that let's nothing bother him or her go for it.
 
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caramel6

Well-Known Member
backbet

blackchipjim said:
I backbet when allowed but it has been my demise a few times. I was standing and counting this game and this guy is doing fine and making no mistakes on playing at all. The count is at the level I want and put backbet the guy's hand and guess what happens. He gets nervous and starts playing like an idiot because of the bets. I have had this happen enough times so I just stopped doing it out of frustration. If you find a cool hand luke that let's nothing bother him or her go for it.
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I try to do same. Would you rather wait till TC2 or higher and out , say, 5 bets under 5 players, or wait and look for an opportunity to bet under 2 or 3 players? (of course, sure they play good BS).
Could it be better to open own box instead when TC is high enough?
 
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caramel6

Well-Known Member
rider bets

but why?would you agree that high counts give more advantage for a fewer players? so if they would play as it should be played, with indexes and so on, why open one more box ? Ot may be I do not understand something?
 
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Koz1984

Well-Known Member
I was Wonging and entered a shoe at +2, but as all the spots were taken I decided to backbet. I don't want to stereotype here, but I chose a middle aged Asian woman, as I find that they play BS pretty much perfectly, especially where I came from. However, If I was to make one criticism, it's that NO-ONE knows how to play soft 18 correctly. After a while they became slightly agitated about my approach and left, which was great for my game as the TC was rising fast. I played out the shoe HU and made $1400 in about 10 minutes.
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
caramel6 said:
but why?would you agree that high counts give more advantage for a fewer players? so if they would play as it should be played, with indexes and so on, why open one more box ? Ot may be I do not understand something?
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The difference, as compared to not playing any -counts is negligible.
Open two spots if available. Or even three. zg
 
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caramel6

Well-Known Member
zengrifter said:
The difference, as compared to not playing any -counts is negligible.
Open two spots if available. Or even three. zg
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sorry, not quite get you, you mean that wonging in on TC 2only is the same as not to play at all??? seems I did not get something.

I meant that in a positive counts more picture left. So logically if this extr amount of pictures is distributed in between 4 people , they will get less of it, comparing with 2 players, isn,t it?
Sorry for my Eng;ish, not my first language.
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
caramel6 said:
I meant that in a positive counts more picture left. So logically if this extr amount of pictures is distributed in between 4 people , they will get less of it, comparing with 2 players, isn,t it?
Sorry for my Eng;ish, not my first language.
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Yes, if only you mean that you'll get fewer +EV hands per hour when tables are fuller. But the hands you do get, even when the table is full except for your one wong-in hand, will NOT suffer due to other players diluting the "good" cards. And if there is room for two or three hands to bet at the higher counts doing so will increase your profit per hour. zg
 
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caramel6

Well-Known Member
wonging

thanks a lot, read your interview, extremely interesting! So you mean if 4 boxes playing, TC high, no problem to open 5 box with a high bet, say, 40, rather then spread it under players boxes,(10, 10 ,10, 10 ),knowing they play reasonable BS?
 
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matt21

Well-Known Member
what can also happen (if you play behind someone else), and your bet is significnatly higher than theirs, they will often ask you what you want to do, so in effect you are controlling their hand.

Several times I was playing at a table with one other player. I was spreading from one to two hands. The other player was aways playing one hand. When I was spreading I would put my bet behind his, and he would always ask me what I wanted to do. This worked out perfectly as I was effectively still getting a 1-2 spread as if I was playing heads-up yet during neutral and negative counts, the other player was eating up the cards - which means the EV for the situation was better than if I had played heads-up at the same table.

I think the player knew that I was a 'lucky' player to some extent, that's why he let me control his hand. But it's only in some casinos where I could actually place a bet behind some else (and we were generally betting black).
 
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