Poker vs Blackjack

[bob_the_counterr]

Obviously I would assume most of you don't play poker very much, if ever. So, black is your thing. My question is, for someone who can't quite bankroll themselves, can poker be a lucrative alternative? And by "lucrative" I don't mean millions, maybe 200-300 a week as a second job.

I have always liked BJ and to a less extent, Poker (hold 'em) and lately I've invested alot of time into learning how to count and have really made some improvements and I feel fairly strong that with more time and an actual bankroll I could almost pull it off. But after reading alot and having some quite expensive practice, I've really learned that I must have a BR to back me, seeing as how you can piss away a few hundred in a few hands and be heading home in 20 minuets. And I'm sure that even those with substantial BRs, most wash out. It clearly isn't for anyone. Hell, with my shitty attention span and discipline ( getting better :laugh: ) it probably isn't for me either lol. But that's not my point for this post. I also have shitty games in my area, though notable gambling hotspots are well within reach.

I currently have a job (not a good one by any means, part time, low pay) and would like to go "pro" someday, but obviously baby steps are necessary, especially in my case and it would take awhile to build any sort of acceptable BR (5k? 10k?....) to have an actual "fair fight" at the game.

So my question is, do you think poker could be something to look into for now? Again, only looking to make 200-300 max a week as a part time 2nd job.


How'd you guys do it? I've been reading some posts on here for awhile and I know some of you have businesses and high paying jobs that allow for acceptable BRs, but what about the rest of you? Did you stack up for a few years or what? Just curious as to how this actually works and plays out in the real world and not the movie "21" or anything lol

I'm just tired of what I'm doing now with shitty pay and shitty hours. And if I could make, say, $15/hr playing either of these games, then for now that sounds well worth it. Doing something I've always enjoyed and making some side cash.

 

[bob_the_counterr]

Maybe look for someone to team up with for the spotter/BP approach for let's say, 5-10% of winnings? Just looking for thoughts, stories, suggestions; a down to earth view of this whole thing lol.

I know it started out as a simple question but I rant... :laugh:

 

[Craps Master]

I don't think it's overly ambitious to try to make $200-$300/week in poker. If you study up and play in low-stakes games, you can probably do that. Those games are not very difficult to win in. I imagine you would want to start with around $3,000. You'd need more if you did not have a job, but since you do, you can replenish your losses. If I were you, I would target the live $1/$2 no-limit hold'em games.

If you want to make a go at blackjack/casino games with such a small bankroll, you absolutely must take advantage of coupons and bonuses. You're setting yourself up to fail if you try to count cards on such a short roll.

 

[bob_the_counterr]

You're setting yourself up to fail if you try to count cards on such a short roll.

Yeah... I've read and have been finding out first hand. Yes i am hard headed, besides the point though lol. Been having some expensive practice lately

So you think a 3k BR is a target for $1/$2 hold em?

 

[Craps Master]

Yeah... I've read and have been finding out first hand. Yes i am hard headed, besides the point though lol. Been having some expensive practice lately

So you think a 3k BR is a target for $1/$2 hold em?

It's OK if you take it slow and if you have enough money coming in from your job that you can replenish your bankroll as needed. Spend a lot of time studying up between sessions, and don't play long sessions to start off. You won't be a winning player right away. It will take time, but if you're diligent you will ultimately win, because the level of competition in low-stakes live games is extremely low. You'll be up against a lot of people who put no time and effort into improving at the game.

If you had started this thread saying you wanted to make $2,000-$3,000 a week playing poker, I'd tell you that you have a long road ahead of you and you may never get there. But, $200-$300 a week on a parttime basis is a goal that's not all that difficult to achieve. Again, assuming you have enough analytical ability and self-control to win at poker. Some don't, but I imagine most people who show up at a card counting message board do.

 

[bob_the_counterr]

What about $40-$60 buy in guaranteed 3k tourneys? I'll have to check what live poker they have in NorCal, not sure if any?

How's the online poker these days? Looks like full tilt tilted...

 

[AR Nick]

How's the online poker these days? Looks like full tilt tilted...

And they're not the only ones, sadly.

 

[DublinDown]

I wouldn't say I'm a great poker player but i would say i am a good one so I'll try to help.

OK firstly I would say poker should be an easy progression for a counter but I doubt it'll be to easy. While the math of poker is fairly simple it takes a long time to be a solid / winning player, if you ever will be one at all. There is a lot of math involved in poker like in BJ but poker has a lot of other elements involved, a lot of these are tricky to learn ( so you cant just study for hours and understand them ), they generally come with experience.

psychologically i would say poker is the tougher game, Variance in poker is also massive and it is much harder to see whether you are experiencing variance than it is in BJ.

From a bankroll perspective, a beginner playing tournaments should have well over 100 buy ins, i would say closer to 200. If you want to play cash your BR can be smaller but seeing as you again will be a beginner i would opt for a large BR in relation to your buy in ( between 40 and 80 BI ).

While I agree that a live 1/2 game will be soft almost everywhere that does not rule out the short term luck factor plus they will be soft for a good solid player not for a beginner.

10 - 20 buy in swings short term are common for good players playing cash, even more is pretty standard.

I hope I haven't scared you away from poker =), it is a great game and can be very rewarding but i don't like to see people who are serious about learning the game go in with any illusions as to how tough / easy it can be.

I had planned a nice structured thought out post but unfortunately it has turned into a kind of garbled rant. Sorry about that.

Feel free to ask about anything, I think I could answer most questions you might have.

Cheers

 

[SleightOfHand]

I wouldn't say I'm a great poker player but i would say i am a good one so I'll try to help.

OK firstly I would say poker should be an easy progression for a counter but I doubt it'll be to easy. While the math of poker is fairly simple it takes a long time to be a solid / winning player, if you ever will be one at all. There is a lot of math involved in poker like in BJ but poker has a lot of other elements involved, a lot of these are tricky to learn ( so you cant just study for hours and understand them ), they generally come with experience.

I totally agree with this here. The math of poker is very easy (2/4 rule, expressed odds, implied odds (teensy bit tougher), stack to pot ratio, stack to blinds... all of it equally "difficult" as CC, and you get all the time you want to figure them out. However, knowing these numbers wont make you a good player (although honestly it could be enough to win), and actual live experience is necessary (something I never thought I would say) even with a good amount of online experience.

psychologically i would say poker is the tougher game, Variance in poker is also massive and it is much harder to see whether you are experiencing variance than it is in BJ.

From a bankroll perspective, a beginner playing tournaments should have well over 100 buy ins, i would say closer to 200. If you want to play cash your BR can be smaller but seeing as you again will be a beginner i would opt for a large BR in relation to your buy in ( between 40 and 80 BI ).

Depending on how good you are, even 40 buyins seems extraneous for a live game. I have been playing about 6 days a week for a few months, and I would say that 20 buyins would be plenty (although short stacked players will have a bit more variance). My biggest downswing has been 5 (200 bb) buyins over 25 hours of play with about 500 hours of live play under my belt. And that occurred when I was still adjusting to live play. 500 hours isn't a huge amount (prob around 1.5k hands), but I feel it is long enough to get an idea of what kind of expectations to have overall (you can see my BR growth here)

 

[blackjacktilt]

What about $40-$60 buy in guaranteed 3k tourneys? I'll have to check what live poker they have in NorCal, not sure if any?

How's the online poker these days? Looks like full tilt tilted...

You can most certainly make $200-$300 per week playing $1/$2 NL.
The only thing is do you have the patience, time and discipline to do so?
You can make much more than that per week with the above, and good game selection.
Online poker is dead, stop reminding me :whip:
If I were you, I'd stay away from tournaments, too much luck involved.
I'll give you an example, how would you feel if you hit your goal of say $300 win the previous week and decide to enter a $60 tourney and get knocked out in 30 minutes... Now if re-buys are available, you can waste another $30 or $60 or whatever the rebuy is, but now you're chasing that original buy in.
Discipline my friend.
Stick to cash games, ask for table changes if you feel the table is too strong, check your ego at the door. Poker is about making money.
Good luck

 

[DublinDown]

I totally agree with this here. The math of poker is very easy (2/4 rule, expressed odds, implied odds (teensy bit tougher), stack to pot ratio, stack to blinds... all of it equally "difficult" as CC, and you get all the time you want to figure them out. However, knowing these numbers wont make you a good player (although honestly it could be enough to win), and actual live experience is necessary (something I never thought I would say) even with a good amount of online experience.



Depending on how good you are, even 40 buyins seems extraneous for a live game. I have been playing about 6 days a week for a few months, and I would say that 20 buyins would be plenty (although short stacked players will have a bit more variance). My biggest downswing has been 5 (200 bb) buyins over 25 hours of play with about 500 hours of live play under my belt. And that occurred when I was still adjusting to live play. 500 hours isn't a huge amount (prob around 1.5k hands), but I feel it is long enough to get an idea of what kind of expectations to have overall (you can see my BR growth here)

Yep, agree with all you've said mate.. the reason i said 40+ BI for cash is that i assumed from the OP's post that he is new to the game, you sound like you have been playing for a while and know where you are at but imagine playing 1/2 live before you learned about implied / reverse implied / pot odds or basic hand reading / ranging etc.. I think OP has to factor in a massive learning curve and that's gotta be worth 5-10BI on a 1/2 live game ( if that's what he chooses to start at )

Btw I'm a tourney player so some of my estimates may well be off..

Even if he sticks to your BR of 20 BI, that's 4k which is not to much less than the required BR for BJ he stated in the OP, so it still poses a problem for him right?

 

[dark_hatchling]

lol, thinking about grinding away at the micro stakes on Bodog (anyone know of any better for US players?) until I can get enough for a few buy ins at a local live table, then see where that goes.

 

[flyingwind]

lol, thinking about grinding away at the micro stakes on Bodog (anyone know of any better for US players?) until I can get enough for a few buy ins at a local live table, then see where that goes.

US player can play online here? Is the site trust worthy?

 

[dark_hatchling]

At Bodog? Ya US players can play, they took my money and let me spend it at least haha. I read fairly reputable reviews on it, the only thing I'm skeptical on is their payout format and timeframe. Some people said it took quite awhile for the first payout and you have to submit a photocopy of your ID and **** I guess and they only send you a check if you deposit by Visa. I only played a few hours with real money, plan on giving some more time when i get paid lol

 

[London Colin]

At Bodog? Ya US players can play, they took my money and let me spend it at least haha. I read fairly reputable reviews on it, the only thing I'm skeptical on is their payout format and timeframe. Some people said it took quite awhile for the first payout and you have to submit a photocopy of your ID and **** I guess and they only send you a check if you deposit by Visa. I only played a few hours with real money, plan on giving some more time when i get paid lol

Looks like you may only have until the end of the year ...
http://www.casinoscamreport.com/tag/bodog-u-s-online-gambling/

 

[flyingwind]

Is Intertops Poker Room reputable? Will they continue to accept US player beyond 2011?

 

[Sucker]

Hell, with my shitty attention span and discipline ( getting better :laugh: )

This is a very worrisome statement. The number one most important trait of a professional poker player is discipline; ESPECIALLY for no-limit. And "getting better" does not cut it.

Discipline in poker is much different than in blackjack. In BJ you only have to have the discipline to follow the math. In poker, many if not MOST of your decisions will be based - at LEAST in great part - on psychology. ALL emotion must be erased from your mind at these important times. And that's exactly what discipline IS - the ability to erase emotion from one's mind when necessary.

Unless and until you can get discipline COMPLETELY under control; my advice would be to stick with blackjack.

 

[PonyPrincess]

You'll need forty buyins minimum IF you're a big winning player. Otherwise, no amount of money will stop you from going busto.

Twenty buyins as your entire bankroll is a joke most people don't notice because live play is so slow a 20-buyin downswing could last an entire year.

 

[creeping panther]

Bob

It is no longer an issue of BJ vs Poker,,,many of us veterans here have come to realize, with the help of others, that the casino is a very big place with many opportunities, all very lucrative.

It is a great feeling to have a dozen or more opportunities to move from in the casino, no longer just BJ or Poker, but a whole new world, and a good many here will know just what I am talking about.

It is time for all AP's to broaden their horizons

CP

 

[blackjack avenger]

the long run or never achieved run

Let's say an AP is a bj specialist. He has decided to add poker & VP to his craft. If he takes time from playing bj to learn the new games his N0 is frozen & he's not earning. Once he learns the new games & starts to split his time between games he now has 3 different N0's. There will be an overlap of N0's but there will be damage. Also, the bank issues will be confusing. Does one bet Kelly, 1/2 or 1/4 across games?

Playing enough bets to approach the long run is important, as one's attention gets divided that gets harder to do.

As an example 10,000 hands of JOB probably not worth it with modest cash back?

For the poker player:
If experience is important then anything that takes time away slows down your long run.

For the VP player:
Anything that keeps you from chasing royals slows down your long run, its harder if you play different denomination games.

Jack of all trades? Master of none?

A strong argument for expanding game base is availability. Ex. while waiting for your live poker table playing a little bj is better then nothing. Even if you employ a very simple system that was quick to learn, KO with BS as an example.