Profit for the year 2011 so far?

[Lonesome Gambler]

Ah - this is the point. See, when someone says I won 18 grand I could not care less about the size of their unit. I have no interest in that at all. I want to know, how did the casino take it? Did you bet table max, or stay under it? At what point did they start to sweat? Did they yank any dealers?

I'm interested in practical considerations that might apply to me, as opposed to idle curiosity about fluctuation.

I hate to sound like one of "those guys," and I mean absolutely no offense to anyone here, but this is a big difference between low-stakes, recreational players and mid/high-stakes pro players. A 100-unit win is NOT always just a 100-unit win. A 100-unit win by a nickel player spreading 1-12 is completely different than a 100-unit win by a player flat-betting 2x$400. Now, an $18K win tells us much more about the scenario--at that point, we care about how the play went down; with a $5 unit, 100-unit win, we're just talking numbers. So in my opinion, a dollar amount is far more useful when asking for advice or discussing a play, even if you do fudge the numbers a bit for security reasons

 

[Zerg]

I think we talk in "units" to disguise those exact numbers, either from potential casino "guests" visiting the sites, or any forum members. There are many reasons one could want to lead others to believe that they are playing for more or less.

I think the term "unit" as we use it isn't all that useful. When I started playing green I would spread $25-$200 with lots of wonging. Now I spread $25 to about $600. I probably won't move up to $100 tables until 2X$900 seems too small (if l ever get there.) If I had a 200 "unit" win or loss the first day I started playing green It would have been amazing/devastating. Now it is fairly common.

IMO, if we want to talk about wins/losses without revealing the dollar amount we should talk in terms of what you bet at TC 5. Or maybe we should talk about it in terms of your bankroll. This way we can express how meaningful a win or loss is to us without revealing numbers if we don't want to. How about using metric prefixes? Example: I just wont 8 centi-rolls! = Just increased my bankroll by 8%.

-Metricphilic Zerg

 

[kewljason]

I see so many posts on this site by people who are literally freaking out because they got beat up & lost "beaucoup" units! I say this is RIDICULOUS.

I like to think of my MAXIMUM bet as my "unit", and my "waiting" bets as merely FRACTIONS of a unit. After all, in the final analysis; the max bets are the only ones that REALLY matter anyway (at least to ME).

If I'm spreading $25 to 2 x $500, and I get stuck a thousand bucks; I look at it as though I'm only stuck ONE unit, rather than 40. For one thing, it makes for a much easier pill to swallow, and FRANKLY; it's a more accurate measure of my results ANYWAY.

IMHO; to think of a "unit" in any other way is like comparing apples to oranges.

I can see that, sucker. That could work for talking about an individual session, but I would have difficulty answering the OP's poll concerning combined results of numerous sessions under this definition though, as I have different max bets for different games (double, 6 deck) plus my max bet for the exact same game can be different, based on what I determine as the tolerance level of different stores. It may even be different for the same exact game at the same store at different days and times of the week, depending on how crowded it is and who is playing.

This has been an interesting discussion with some different views and definitions that I would have never considered. I suppose this is why Ken Smith does his end of year results poll in dollar amounts. :laugh:

 

[bigplayer]

What's a Unit?

If it's table minimum I've won thousands of units for the year. If it's my 0.5% advantage unit ($400) I was up 310 units then back to even then back up about 60 units.

 

[aslan]

I don't think you will find a common language that will fit everyone's needs and preferences. And for me, that's all right.

For my purposes, a unit will always be my normal min bet. If you want to know how many max bets I am ahead, I could tell you that, too, although like kewljason said, it sometimes varies what my max bet is. Also, sometimes I may play a $25 min table, and another time I may play a $50 table or a $15 table. So if one plays multiple table mins, I don't see how max bets helps either, especially if they are figured on a multiple of one's minimum bet, as mine are. To me units that are set at one's minimum bet level tells more about how well one is doing in terms of efficiency, even though the dollars may vary wildly between $10, $25 and $50 dollar tables. In terms of how well I'm doing overall, total net dollars is what I personally look to, not max bets or number of units. But that's just me.

 

[tthree]

You play for $5 min bet and win $150, you made 30 units. You go to a $10 and lose $150, you lost 15 units. You are even money wise but ahead 15 units. I used my average unit. Win/(average unit size) to determine my number of units ahead so as to avoid this anomaly. I play $5, $10 and $15 tables with different spreads, rules and number of decks for each. They are all good games and they all have very similar EVs, monetarily speaking.

 

[aslan]

You play for $5 min bet and win $150, you made 30 units. You go to a $10 and lose $150, you lost 15 units. You are even money wise but ahead 15 units. I used my average unit. Win/(average unit size) to determine my number of units ahead so as to avoid this anomaly. I play $5, $10 and $15 tables with different spreads, rules and number of decks for each. They are all good games and they all have very similar EVs, monetarily speaking.

Too much detail for me. When I'm thinking in terms of units, I mix $15 with $25 with $50. The same strategies apply unit-wise, at least, the way I play. I also separate dollars won among the various unit groups. Basically, I just want to know how much I am ahead, and at which table min I seem to do best and why.

 

[bigplayer]

You play for $5 min bet and win $150, you made 30 units. You go to a $10 and lose $150, you lost 15 units. You are even money wise but ahead 15 units. I used my average unit. Win/(average unit size) to determine my number of units ahead so as to avoid this anomaly. I play $5, $10 and $15 tables with different spreads, rules and number of decks for each. They are all good games and they all have very similar EVs, monetarily speaking.

nobody who plays for real stakes uses the same minimum bet for all games. Our low bet is always table minimum and at some places our top bet is always table maximum. Using your "lowest" bet as your unit to describe flux is meaningless except for the lowest of low rollers.

Even using "Max" bets to describe your results is often meaningless...at some places our max bet is 3x$500 and at others it might be 2x$3000.

The best description of wins and losses is either actual cumulative monetary results OR Betting units. A betting unit is what you'd bet at 0.5% advantage (i.e., what you'd bet at +1.5 to +2.0 High-Low depending on the off-the-top house advantage). What you bet when you don't have an edge should always be as little as you can possibly get away with...or better yet..$0.

Honestly, what is important to track is your accumulated EV and how your actual results correspond to that on an annual and lifetime basis. This is a tool you can use over time to determine if you are really as good a player as you think you are. In a way this is the reverse of the same exact tools casino's use to flag players for a skills check. If you're not winning what you are supposed to be winning over a large enough sample you should run a skills check on yourself.

 

[aslan]

nobody who plays for real stakes uses the same minimum bet for all games. Our low bet is always table minimum and at some places our top bet is always table maximum. Using your "lowest" bet as your unit to describe flux is meaningless except for the lowest of low rollers.

Even using "Max" bets to describe your results is often meaningless...at some places our max bet is 3x$500 and at others it might be 2x$3000.

The best description of wins and losses is either actual cumulative monetary results OR Betting units. A betting unit is what you'd bet at 0.5% advantage (i.e., what you'd bet at +1.5 to +2.0 High-Low depending on the off-the-top house advantage). What you bet when you don't have an edge should always be as little as you can possibly get away with...or better yet..$0.

Honestly, what is important to track is your accumulated EV and how your actual results correspond to that on an annual and lifetime basis. This is a tool you can use over time to determine if you are really as good a player as you think you are.

But even a betting unit at say, 0.5% advantage, changes from game to game, depending on the table min and on whether you can split to two hands or not.

Not being a pro, I just don't have much use for running statistics on myself, mainly just want to see how far I am ahead and where I win the best, and then try to figure out why-- rules/pen, how well I played, or dumb luck? I'm finding that as much as variance can be a factor, the biggest factor in my game is playing well rested and with nothing on my mind to distract me. Variance cannot be helped, but losses can be minimized if one is playing at his top game and not subject to steaming behavior and poor judgment in general. Everyone should be looking for the best possible rules, and expect less when they cannot find them (I'm speaking of card counting alone).

 

[NightStalker]

Ideal ask should be:

To answer following:
1) Number of hours played
2) Ratio of actual results Vs EV gained (in %age)
3) Ev earned(in $$$) - optional

 

[tthree]

To answer following:
1) Number of hours played
2) Ratio of actual results Vs EV gained (in %age)
3) Ev earned(in $$$) - optional

Yep. That'll do it.

 

[kewljason]

Yep. That'll do it.

Not for me, it won't. I don't keep track of my results by hour or any increment of time. I use an estimate of hands played, because in the end, that's what really matters.

Ken Smith had the right idea by using money won in his yearly poll. After all that is what really matters.

 

[tthree]

Not for me, it won't. I don't keep track of my results by hour or any increment of time. I use an estimate of hands played, because in the end, that's what really matters.

Ken Smith had the right idea by using money won in his yearly poll. After all that is what really matters.

Number 3 is in money. Simply money earned has no context without 1 and 2. I am not sure if you are concerned about money why you want a per hand rather than an hourly. Per hand will be a guess. Hourly is an accurate amount.

 

[kebo15706]

I think part of this discrepancy, at least, has to do with the time someone has been an AP and consequently the size of his/her BR. When I started my BR was 10K, after 8 months of playing it's right around $23K. While I'm pleased with results from playing part time I have only recently jumped up to $25 tables (and I did so bc the table conditions are better than at the $10 or $15 tables at the stores I play). My BR really requires that my "Unit" is equal to my minimum bet otherwise my ROR becomes too high for comfort. If someone is playing with a $100K BR then they can set their Unit much higher (EI: 2 x $100, etc) while still keeping a very low ROR and set that bottom unit at say a .5% or 1% advantage. If not wonging they can drop to table minimum at say $25 at negative counts to fall below their 1 unit while they wait for the count to climb.

I don't have that luxury normally. But when I do find good conditions at a $15 table I will do the same. Play $15 at neg counts then when the count hits neutral I'll go to my 1 unit size of $25 then work my ramp from there.

Maybe it's just easier talking in terms of money rather than units bc you're right it does become confusing trying to understand what someone is talking about with such varying definitions of a unit.

Thanks for telling us what BR you started with, where it is now, and how long it took yours to grow. I've been practicing for about 6 months and I believe I'm ready for casino trials. I'm about to join the war against here soon.

 

[jaygruden]

Thanks for telling us what BR you started with, where it is now, and how long it took yours to grow. I've been practicing for about 6 months and I believe I'm ready for casino trials. I'm about to join the war against here soon.

I'm sure this is dependent on what count you are using and what games you will be playing but I think 6 months is more than enough practice for you to be able to walk in and play. I had been a BS player for years before I started counting so I already knew BS cold. I practiced counting for a few weeks before playing live as CC.

In retrospect I should have practiced a few weeks longer because my first couple weeks of play I was shaky, my next few weeks of play I was comfortable, after that it was a piece of cake. Start at low stakes game and not at your local store. Go somewhere at first where you won't mind so much if you get ID'd as a potential CC. You'll likely be nervous at first in live play which could draw some attention but I think live play is the best teacher after you have gone through all of the other exercises. JMHO.

 

[aslan]

Number 3 is in money. Simply money earned has no context without 1 and 2. I am not sure if you are concerned about money why you want a per hand rather than an hourly. Per hand will be a guess. Hourly is an accurate amount.

How is hourly an accurate amount, when number of hands per hour varies greatly. I feel like kewljason. The only thing hours will tell me is if I am wasting too much time on slow games or crowded tables. Well, I know it tells more, but you know what I mean.

 

[kewljason]

Number 3 is in money. Simply money earned has no context without 1 and 2. I am not sure if you are concerned about money why you want a per hand rather than an hourly. Per hand will be a guess. Hourly is an accurate amount.

I abandoned hourly results in favor of estimating hands for two reasons, tthree. 1.) all hour are not created equally. Hour 1, you play at a table with 4 other people and a slow dealer and get 45 hand. Hour 2 you play heads up with a quick dealer and get 300 hands. Is it fair assign equal value to them? Yes I know you will get an average, but it still makes no sense to me. Your results are determined by how many hands you play so why not measure that?

2.) For my style of play, hit and run, very short sessions, I was recording a bunch of small segments in time. Some very short. Like 2 minutes. lol So I might have sessions that look like this. 12 minutes, 4 minutes, 21 minutes, 2 minutes, 16 minutes, 5 minutes, 36 minutes, 3 minutes, 8 minutes. If I was going to be adding up all these small segments of time, I might as well just estimate the hands played for each session instead. The estimates are pretty close. If you only play 6 hands and get up and walk they are exact. If you play a shoe and a half with one other player, it will be more of an estimate, but still should be reasonably close. I just jot down 2 number
18, +325.

Time is further confused by the problem of do you only count time you sat at a table and played or time scouting and walking. A hit and run player that moves constantly, spends more of his day on the move than sitting at the table.

 

[kewljason]

Judging from the results of this poll, I would conclude that most people are using their waiting or neutral bet as their unit, rather than the definition set forth by bigplayer and Richard Munchkin. Otherwise there is a high number of folks doing quite well, and maybe the casinos should be concerned. :laugh:

The difference in the two definitions being that the unit placed per half percent advantage should by several to many times the waiting or neutral wager.

 

[kebo15706]

I'm sure this is dependent on what count you are using and what games you will be playing but I think 6 months is more than enough practice for you to be able to walk in and play. I had been a BS player for years before I started counting so I already knew BS cold. I practiced counting for a few weeks before playing live as CC.

In retrospect I should have practiced a few weeks longer because my first couple weeks of play I was shaky, my next few weeks of play I was comfortable, after that it was a piece of cake. Start at low stakes game and not at your local store. Go somewhere at first where you won't mind so much if you get ID'd as a potential CC. You'll likely be nervous at first in live play which could draw some attention but I think live play is the best teacher after you have gone through all of the other exercises. JMHO.

I've been practicing with the Hi lo. I know that I'm ready for casino trials, I just don't have a bankroll yet. Thats going to change around tax time. I've been utilizing this time to fine tune my skills. I'm going to start with a $10 unit then progress it as my bank roll grows. As soon as I get a spare $500, I'm going to do some live trials.

 

[aslan]

Judging from the results of this poll, I would conclude that most people are using their waiting or neutral bet as their unit, rather than the definition set forth by bigplayer and Richard Munchkin. Otherwise there is a high number of folks doing quite well, and maybe the casinos should be concerned. :laugh:

The difference in the two definitions being that the unit placed per half percent advantage should by several to many times the waiting or neutral wager.

Actually, my betting spread usually begins with 2 units at .5% and works it's way up to max bet at 2% advantage. Also, sometimes I may not begin betting until 2%+ and that will always be at max bet. So their standard definition of a unit would not make sense for my style of play, especially in a shoe game where max bet may be 8, 10, or 12 times (sometimes even more) my min bet. But I am open to suggestion.