Progessive betting with no house edge
- Thread starter jay28
- Start date
Martin Gayle
Well-Known Member
No house edge progression
There are two only bets in a casino with no HE that I can think of is the Doulbe Up feature on Video Poker terminals and Craps true odds.
It is high card low card vs the dealer while ties push. BS says to do this until you lose or max out. It lessens the house edge on the starting wager. The variance is through the roof.
Another one is the Odds bet in craps. Again, you need to have a bet with a HE to be able to make it. Again variance is high and BS says to take as much free odds you can to offset the HE on the contract bet.
As for a progression...depending on how you use it, it may effect your variance, but in the long run, you will end up in the same spot if you max out your free odds or double up on VP, dead even minus the HE.
There are two only bets in a casino with no HE that I can think of is the Doulbe Up feature on Video Poker terminals and Craps true odds.
It is high card low card vs the dealer while ties push. BS says to do this until you lose or max out. It lessens the house edge on the starting wager. The variance is through the roof.
Another one is the Odds bet in craps. Again, you need to have a bet with a HE to be able to make it. Again variance is high and BS says to take as much free odds you can to offset the HE on the contract bet.
As for a progression...depending on how you use it, it may effect your variance, but in the long run, you will end up in the same spot if you max out your free odds or double up on VP, dead even minus the HE.
Wow. Really? That's beautiful. What's the min-max unit range? I'd love to play it. Any chance this is actually being offered anywhere in the US? Could one move to higher $min table?jay28 said:
Lots of betting systems would give you a high percentage of achieving the goal of the betting system.
I've only seen this online and not played, so not sure of the unit range.Kasi said:
https://casino.betfair.com/
RedChipper
Member
Well, what if you were counting and whenever you were even with the house, say +1, you used a progressive betting system. Say that you would never play a hand at a disadvantage.
Just assume you are using hi-lo and the I18 on a 6 Deck S17, DAS, RSA, NS shoe. Make the table max something reasonable. What do you think of a progressive betting system then?
Just assume you are using hi-lo and the I18 on a 6 Deck S17, DAS, RSA, NS shoe. Make the table max something reasonable. What do you think of a progressive betting system then?
SuperTrump
Active Member
This question has been asked many times before. The problem with combining a progressive system with counting is that you cannot bet enough to maximize gains in proportion to your expected advantage in positive counts using a progressive system like you can card counting with an optimal betting ramp. You are also likely to increase your ROR substantially by employing this technique.RedChipper said:
It's not that big of a deal - just was curious.jay28 said:
Unfortunately I cannot access that website even only wanting to play a "free" game. Thank Uncle Hitler, I mean Uncle Sam, for that.
If you can really play a zero edge roulette game, it's an ideal candidate for a betting system.
Good old Oscar would be my choice but it ain't my money.
If the game is fair you cannot lose in the long run while still enjoying huge probabilities of success in the shorter term.
This was born for voodoo lol.
Maybe the casino is offering this stuff as some sort of loss leader or something? They won't win but, on the other hand, it doesn't cost them anything.
Can you access and play a free version of this?
Makes me want to expatriate to England. Again :grin:
Won't matter how you bet in the long-run in a +EV game.RedChipper said:
As always, roll will dictate chances of success. Table max is a factor too especially with some more extreme progressions.
BJ, in general, is not a good candidate for progressive systems though.
Betting systems work better with even-money pay-offs and something close to a 50-50 probability of winning or losing. Like roulette, don't come at craps etc.
standard toaster
Well-Known Member
The end results will always be equivelant to the house edge. This study by the wizard of odds proved that
This one is played against roulette testing three different systems. Player 1 flat bet a $1 each time. He was not using a betting system. Player 2 started a series of trials with a bet of $1 and increased his wager by $1 after every winning bet. A lost bet would constitute the end of a series and the next bet would be $1. Player 3 also started a series of bets with a bet of $1 but used a doubling strategy in that after a losing bet of $x he would bet $2x (the Martingale). A winning bet would constitute the end of a series and the next bet would be $1. To make it realistic I put a maximum bet on player 3 of $200. Below are the results of that experiment:
Player 1
Total amount wagered = $1,000,000,000
Average wager = $1.00
Total loss = $52,667,912
Expected loss = $52,631,579
Ratio of loss to money wagered = .052668
Player 2
Total amount wagered = $1,899,943,349
Average wager = $1.90
Total loss = $100,056,549
Expected loss = $99,997,018
Ratio of loss to money wagered = .052663
Player 3
Total amount wagered = $5,744,751,450
Average wager = $5.74
Total loss = $302,679,372
Expected loss = $302,355,340
Ratio of loss to money wagered = .052688
As you can see the ratio of money lost to wagered is always near the house edge. Would this mean that playing a zero edge game would end in a gain or loss of zero? I believe so. But that is with a hugeeee bankroll. In reality you would run out of money during a cold streak and bust out. It never wins.
This one is played against roulette testing three different systems. Player 1 flat bet a $1 each time. He was not using a betting system. Player 2 started a series of trials with a bet of $1 and increased his wager by $1 after every winning bet. A lost bet would constitute the end of a series and the next bet would be $1. Player 3 also started a series of bets with a bet of $1 but used a doubling strategy in that after a losing bet of $x he would bet $2x (the Martingale). A winning bet would constitute the end of a series and the next bet would be $1. To make it realistic I put a maximum bet on player 3 of $200. Below are the results of that experiment:
Player 1
Total amount wagered = $1,000,000,000
Average wager = $1.00
Total loss = $52,667,912
Expected loss = $52,631,579
Ratio of loss to money wagered = .052668
Player 2
Total amount wagered = $1,899,943,349
Average wager = $1.90
Total loss = $100,056,549
Expected loss = $99,997,018
Ratio of loss to money wagered = .052663
Player 3
Total amount wagered = $5,744,751,450
Average wager = $5.74
Total loss = $302,679,372
Expected loss = $302,355,340
Ratio of loss to money wagered = .052688
As you can see the ratio of money lost to wagered is always near the house edge. Would this mean that playing a zero edge game would end in a gain or loss of zero? I believe so. But that is with a hugeeee bankroll. In reality you would run out of money during a cold streak and bust out. It never wins.
Of course. But that says nothing about the probability of winning x units over the next y spins using a progressive system. Progressive systems will increase your probability of winning a little at the expense of losing alot not very often.standard toaster said:
Like, with 0% roulette, using Oscar with a 1000 unit roll, one will win 1 unit over 99.9% of the time. One will lose the 1000 unit roll less than 1 time in 1000.
And the 999 times you in 1 unit will only take an avg of about 6 spins to win it but the 1 time you lose the 1000 units will take an avg of 194 spins or so.
There's alot one can do to stay ahead for a very very long time, especially in this case with the downside being to breakeven no matter how you bet lol.
Spread Allowed
I had another quick look at this game, it seem's that the bet range is only 1-10 units for "outside bets" (only £1-£10 - appologies, i'm no longer sure what this is now in $ since the £ crashed out and i'm too scared to look! - lol), so pretty worthless.
I didn't have time to check out the ranges on single numbers and won't have funds in there again until next month, when they offer me another bonus.
It may be possible to increase this range by betting on half of the table on random single numbers but properly not.
It's a shame the US is a nanny state as far as online gambling is concerned, otherwise you guys could look!
I had another quick look at this game, it seem's that the bet range is only 1-10 units for "outside bets" (only £1-£10 - appologies, i'm no longer sure what this is now in $ since the £ crashed out and i'm too scared to look! - lol), so pretty worthless.
I didn't have time to check out the ranges on single numbers and won't have funds in there again until next month, when they offer me another bonus.
It may be possible to increase this range by betting on half of the table on random single numbers but properly not.
It's a shame the US is a nanny state as far as online gambling is concerned, otherwise you guys could look!
Just checked the Betfair "Zero Lounge", but fear it's nothing to get too excited by - the bet limits are too small.
For roulette there's a £50 table limit - £5 straight up, £10 split, £10 for even money.
I suppose in theory you could play a number straight up, hope to hit it quickly and take the money - but if not, continue playing and increase your stake sufficiently to get your money back - ie as you eventually would given there's no HE.
But that seems impractical given the number of spins it could take, and, more to the point, the low table limits.
For roulette there's a £50 table limit - £5 straight up, £10 split, £10 for even money.
I suppose in theory you could play a number straight up, hope to hit it quickly and take the money - but if not, continue playing and increase your stake sufficiently to get your money back - ie as you eventually would given there's no HE.
But that seems impractical given the number of spins it could take, and, more to the point, the low table limits.
Katweezel
Well-Known Member
From Betfair home page on 'Zero games'
CUT AND PASTE FROM BETFAIR
"About Zero Games...
The only casino in the world with no house edge.
Betfair Casino offers two great casino lounges, the Zero Lounge and the Main Lounge. The Main Lounge offers a huge range of the newest and most exciting games making it one of the most diverse and best value casinos on the web.
The Zero Lounge is the first casino with zero house edge on every game* . The following great games are on offer in the Zero Lounge:
Zero Roulette - One of the most exciting casino games just got a whole lot more interesting. We've removed the 'zero' from the wheel which means you get true odds on every bet.
Zero Baccarat - We've reduced the commission on the banker bet to 2.75 per cent to create the best return to player of any Baccarat game on the web.
Zero Blackjack - The rules have been altered in your favour. We pay out 2 - 1 for a suited natural Blackjack and a five card 21.
Zero Jacks or Better - This version of video poker takes the house out of the game. With a Royal Flush payout 22 per cent higher than in any other online Casino, it is the best value Jacks or Better anywhere.
Betfair prides itself on offering a unique service. The zero lounge continues that tradition by offering the only casino where games can be played with no house edge.
If the zero lounge doesn't have the game that you want to play, visit the Betfair main lounge. The main lounge offers fantastic player bonuses and unbeatable offers only available to Betfair Casino customers.
*The return to player on all zero games is 100.0 per cent. This is correct to at least 1 decimal place based on optimal player strategy."
CUT AND PASTE FROM BETFAIR
"About Zero Games...
The only casino in the world with no house edge.
Betfair Casino offers two great casino lounges, the Zero Lounge and the Main Lounge. The Main Lounge offers a huge range of the newest and most exciting games making it one of the most diverse and best value casinos on the web.
The Zero Lounge is the first casino with zero house edge on every game* . The following great games are on offer in the Zero Lounge:
Zero Roulette - One of the most exciting casino games just got a whole lot more interesting. We've removed the 'zero' from the wheel which means you get true odds on every bet.
Zero Baccarat - We've reduced the commission on the banker bet to 2.75 per cent to create the best return to player of any Baccarat game on the web.
Zero Blackjack - The rules have been altered in your favour. We pay out 2 - 1 for a suited natural Blackjack and a five card 21.
Zero Jacks or Better - This version of video poker takes the house out of the game. With a Royal Flush payout 22 per cent higher than in any other online Casino, it is the best value Jacks or Better anywhere.
Betfair prides itself on offering a unique service. The zero lounge continues that tradition by offering the only casino where games can be played with no house edge.
If the zero lounge doesn't have the game that you want to play, visit the Betfair main lounge. The main lounge offers fantastic player bonuses and unbeatable offers only available to Betfair Casino customers.
*The return to player on all zero games is 100.0 per cent. This is correct to at least 1 decimal place based on optimal player strategy."