re-double (triplete)

L

London Colin

Well-Known Member
I've attempted to add both revelation0928 and wessnipes. The former seems to have worked ok (though I got a server error message). However, for some reason, the system does not appear to recognise the wessnipes user name when I start typing it in (i.e. no auto-complete); and typing it in fully did not seem to work...
 
W

wessnipes

Member
London Colin said:
I've attempted to add both revelation0928 and wessnipes. The former seems to have worked ok (though I got a server error message). However, for some reason, the system does not appear to recognise the wessnipes user name when I start typing it in (i.e. no auto-complete); and typing it in fully did not seem to work...
Click to expand...
I appreciate you trying. I'm not sure what is happening with my conversations and I assume you did not receive mine previously also. Is it possible to forward via email? - [email protected]
 
L

London Colin

Well-Known Member
wessnipes said:
I appreciate you trying. I'm not sure what is happening with my conversations and I assume you did not receive mine previously also. Is it possible to forward via email? - [email protected]
Click to expand...
I did receive two copies of your message, and also two copies of a message from revelation0928. It looks like there may be an issue with rogue error messages making people think they need to try certain actions again.

Not sure what is happening with your username to prevent me adding you to the existing conversation, nor whether another participant (such as Gronbog) would/should be able to add you.

If you can't be added to the conversation then I need to take a look and see what information needs to be extracted from it in order to give you what you need. (It's a long time since I looked at any of this and it is far from fresh in my memory!)
 
gronbog

gronbog

Well-Known Member
I have experienced the issue of an error message indicating that posts to conversations have failed, even though the message ends up being successfully posted.

I know I promised to post the strategy for this game. I have it but am just checking on a few things before I post.
 
L

London Colin

Well-Known Member
gronbog said:
I have experienced the issue of an error message indicating that posts to conversations have failed, even though the message ends up being successfully posted.

I know I promised to post the strategy for this game. I have it but am just checking on a few things before I post.
Click to expand...
Hey Gronbog; belated congrats on your book with Don.

Another weirdness with the PMs is that I didn't get email notifications. It was a pure fluke that I happened to decide to take a look at the forum for the first time in ages and thus saw them (and this thread).

Would the 'New Member' status of wessnipes be what is preventing me from adding him to the conversation, do you suppose?

If no one objects, I am also happy to also extract the BS table I generated and post it here. As I recall, we arrived at more or less the same strategy, but I don't really recall the details (and skim-reading the 5 pages of conversation about it is surprisingly confusing!:eek:)
 
W

wessnipes

Member
London Colin said:
I did receive two copies of your message, and also two copies of a message from revelation0928. It looks like there may be an issue with rogue error messages making people think they need to try certain actions again.

Not sure what is happening with your username to prevent me adding you to the existing conversation, nor whether another participant (such as Gronbog) would/should be able to add you.

If you can't be added to the conversation then I need to take a look and see what information needs to be extracted from it in order to give you what you need. (It's a long time since I looked at any of this and it is far from fresh in my memory!)
Click to expand...
Thank you for digging back into this. Hopefully it remains of value to you to keep it fresh in your mind - It's good to know that years after the original post, these games can still be found in Eastern Europe and possibly beyond.

I look forward to viewing the conversation, or Gronbog's post once he's reviewed.
 
L

London Colin

Well-Known Member
wessnipes said:
Thank you for digging back into this. Hopefully it remains of value to you to keep it fresh in your mind - It's good to know that years after the original post, these games can still be found in Eastern Europe and possibly beyond.

I look forward to viewing the conversation, or Gronbog's post once he's reviewed.
Click to expand...
I've PM'd you. Got an error msg, but am going to assume the PM has reached you!:)
 
R

revelation0928

Member
Thanks London Colin for inviting me into the conversation.
I've shared the info in the conversation but still got a system error after I post.
I found my post in the conversation after the system shows error but don't know if you guys see my post in the conversation.
I practice the BS of redoubling in the casino yesterday and it was fun ;)
 
gronbog

gronbog

Well-Known Member
Hi All. Sorry for the delay in posting but it has been a long time since I've looked at redoubling and I wanted to make sure that no new bugs had been introduced into my software with respect to that feature. I also made some improvements to my chart generator. In any case, I'm happy with my latest results and ready to show them to you. I'm posting here because the questions were originally asked here and I don't think that the information is
overly sensitive. After all, part of this strategy has been available from the Wizard of Odds for many years now.

As far as I can see, the only difference between the game being discussed here and the one that Colin and I analyzed years ago is that this one has full early surrender. As a reminder, the rules as I understand them are 6D S17 DOA DAS SPL3 SA1 and redouble for the amount of the original bet (i.e. bet 1, double for 1, redouble for 1). Here is my strategy for this game if you can not double for less (more on that later).

https://gronbog.org/results/blackjack/strategy/bji.com/basic.6.s17.es.doa.das.rdo1.spl3.sa1.enhc.html

It was speculated above that the player edge for this game might be around 0.5% which is close to my figure of 0.55%. However, it's possible that we can do better. It turns out that, in this situation, where you can only (re)double or stand, it can be correct to double for as little as possible. The reason is that doubling for a very small amount is more like hitting once than doubling and, for some hands, hitting is what we would really like to do. Here is my strategy for the same game where we can double for less:

https://gronbog.org/results/blackjack/strategy/bji.com/basic.6.s17.es.doa.das.dl.rdo1.spl3.sa1.enhc.html

Let me first explain the notation for redoubling:

- ds means that you can double for any amount, but you should double for as much as possible
- lds means that you can double for any amount, but you should double for as little as possible. $1 or even less if they have chips for it and will allow it.
- l(xx.x%)s means that you should double for less but only if you can double for less than the indicated percentage of your total previous bet. If you can't do this, then you should stand. For example, if you bet $25, and doubled for $25, then your total previous bet is $50. If you have 13 vs T, for example, the cell says l(20.8%)s, you would double for less if you can do it for $10 or less, otherwise stand. Take a look at 6 vs T. The cell says l(1.3%)s. In order to make this redouble, you would have to be betting something like $500, doubled for $500 and could redouble for $1!
- d(xx.x%)s means to double for as much as possible but only if you can do so for more than the indicated percentage of your total previous bet. This is important for this game where we can only redouble for the amount of our original bet. In particular, for A,7 vs 3, the cell says d(70.4%)s. In this game we do not make this double because we can only redouble for 50% of our total previous bet.

A few notes:

- Notice that the strategy for redoubling when you can double for less becomes the same as for when you can't if in fact you can't. That is, all of the doubles for the full amount are available.
- Being able to redouble for less means that you make more initial doubles.
- Notice that the hands which we redouble for less are pretty much the ones we would normally want to hit.
- The player edge of 0.94% when you can double for less assumes that you can double for zero, which is a purely theoretical result. Your actual edge will be less than that and becomes worse as you are forced to double for more. It will be between 0.94% and the 0.55% given for the no-double-for-less game.
 
Last edited:
W

wessnipes

Member
gronbog said:
Hi All. Sorry for the delay in posting but it has been a long time since I've looked at redoubling and I wanted to make sure that no new bugs had been introduced into my software with respect to that feature. I also made some improvements to my chart generator. In any case, I'm happy with my latest results and ready to show them to you. I'm posting here because the questions were originally asked here and I don't think that the information is
overly sensitive. After all, part of this strategy has been available from the Wizard of Odds for many years now.

As far as I can see, the only difference between the game being discussed here and the one that Colin and I analyzed years ago is that this one has full early surrender. As a reminder, the rules as I understand them are 6D S17 DOA DAS SPL3 SA1 and redouble for the amount of the original bet (i.e. bet 1, double for 1, redouble for 1). Here is my strategy for this game if you can not double for less (more on that later).

https://gronbog.org/results/blackjack/strategy/bji.com/basic.6.s17.es.doa.das.rdo1.spl3.sa1.enhc.html

It was speculated above that the player edge for this game might be around 0.5% which is close to my figure of 0.55%. However, it's possible that we can do better. It turns out that, in this situation, where you can only (re)double or stand, it can be correct to double for as little as possible. The reason is that doubling for a very small amount is more like hitting once than doubling and, for some hands, hitting is what we would really like to do. Here is my strategy for the same game where we can double for less:

https://gronbog.org/results/blackjack/strategy/bji.com/basic.6.s17.es.doa.das.dl.rdo1.spl3.sa1.enhc.html

Let me first explain the notation for redoubling:

- ds means that you can double for any amount, but you should double for as much as possible
- lds means that you can double for any amount, but you should double for as little as possible. $1 or even less if they have chips for it and will allow it.
- l(xx.x%)s means that you should double for less but only if you can double for less than the indicated percentage of your total previous bet. If you can't do this, then you should stand. For example, if you bet $25, and doubled for $25, then your total previous bet is $50. If you have 13 vs T, for example, If the cell says l(20.8%)s, you would double for less if you can do it for $10 or less, otherwise stand. Take a look at 6 vs T. The cell says l(1.3%)s. In order to make this redouble, you would have to be betting something like $500, doubled for $500 and could redouble for $1!
- d(xx.x%)s means to double for as much as possible but only if you can do so for more than the indicated percentage of your total previous bet. This is important for this game where we can only redouble for the amount of our original bet. In particular, for A,7 vs 3, the cell says d(70.4%)s. In this game we do not make this double because we can only redouble for 50% of our total previous bet.

A few of notes:

- Notice that the strategy for redoubling when you can double for less becomes the same as for when you can't if in fact you can't. That is, all of the doubles for the full amount are available.
- Being able to redouble for less means that you make more initial doubles.
- Notice that the hands which we redouble for less are pretty much the ones we would normally want to hit.
- The player edge of 0.94% when you can double for less assumes that you can double for zero, which is a purely theoretical result. Your actual edge will be less than that and becomes worse as you are forced to double for more. It will be between 0.94% and the 0.55% given for the no-double-for-less game.
Click to expand...
This is very much appreciated gronbog. Thanks for posting such a thorough follow up on the strategy.
 
gronbog

gronbog

Well-Known Member
London Colin said:
Hey Gronbog; belated congrats on your book with Don
Click to expand...
Thanks Colin. It's been a while since we were in contact. I hope all is well with you!

For those who don't know, the book Colin is referring to is The Hi-Lo Card Counting System: A Complete Guide to Index Play. It goes beyond the I18 and Fab4 for a wide variety of rule sets and bet spreads. See this article in Casino Player Magazine for some more details:

http://digital.casinoplayer.com/june-2023/articles?m=16806&i=794226&view=articleBrowser&article_id=4594867&ver=html5

It's available on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Hi-Lo-Card-Counting-System-Complete/dp/1944877622/ref=sr_1_6?crid=S65F3QPUS0G2&keywords=Don+Schlesinger+books&qid=1683422100&sprefix=don+schlesinger+books,aps,94&sr=8-6

Also available from Las Vegas Advisor is a companion work, The Hi-Lo Card Counting System: A Visual Guide to Index Play, which is multiple sets of graphs visually showing how the indices are determined:

https://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/shop/product-category/games/blackjack/page/3/
 
L

London Colin

Well-Known Member
For what it's worth, I've revisited my CA code and generated the following BS table for the 6D, full early surrender case -
(The player edge comes to +0.579743857%:))

Code: 
S17 ENHC DOA DAS SPA1 SPL3 ES

  Hard |                Dealer's up card
  hand | 2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9    10   A
-----------------------------------------------------------
 10- 9 | S    S    S    S    S    S    S    S    s    s   
       |
 10- 8 | S    S    S    S    S    S    S    s    s    s   
       |
 10- 7 | s    s    s    s    S    s    s    s    s    rs  
  9- 8 | s    s    s    s    S    s    s    s    s    rs  
       |
 10- 6 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    rh   rh   rh  
  9- 7 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    rh   rh   rh  
       |
 10- 5 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    h    rh   rh  
  9- 6 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    h    rh   rh  
  8- 7 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    h    rh   rh  
       |
 10- 4 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    h    rh   rh  
  9- 5 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    h    rh   rh  
  8- 6 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    h    rh   rh  
       |
 10- 3 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    h    h    rh  
  9- 4 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    h    h    rh  
  8- 5 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    h    h    rh  
  7- 6 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    h    h    rh  
       |
 10- 2 | h    h    h    s    s    h    h    h    h    rh  
  9- 3 | h    h    s    s    s    h    h    h    h    rh  
  8- 4 | h    h    s    s    s    h    h    h    h    rh  
  7- 5 | h    h    s    s    s    h    h    h    h    rh  
       |
  9- 2 | DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   H    h   
  8- 3 | DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   H    h   
  7- 4 | DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   H    h   
  6- 5 | DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   H    h   
       |
  8- 2 | DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   h    h   
  7- 3 | DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   h    h   
  6- 4 | DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   h    h   
       |
  7- 2 | DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   h    h    h   
  6- 3 | DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   h    h    h   
  5- 4 | DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   h    h    h   
       |
  6- 2 | dh   DH   DH   DH   DH   H    h    h    h    h   
  5- 3 | dh   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   h    h    h    h   
       |
  5- 2 | h    h    dh   DH   DH   h    h    h    h    rh  
  4- 3 | h    h    dh   DH   DH   h    h    h    h    rh  
       |
  4- 2 | h    h    h    dh   Dh   h    h    h    h    rh  
       |
  3- 2 | h    h    h    dh   DH   h    h    h    h    rh  
       |

  Soft |                Dealer's up card
  hand | 2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9    10   A
-----------------------------------------------------------
  A- 9 | S    S    S    S    S    S    S    S    S    S   
  A- 8 | S    S    S    S    S    S    S    S    s    s   
  A- 7 | S    DS   DS   DS   DS   S    S    h    h    h   
  A- 6 | H    DH   DH   DH   DH   H    h    h    h    h   
  A- 5 | h    DH   DH   DH   DH   h    h    h    h    h   
  A- 4 | h    DH   DH   DH   DH   H    h    h    h    h   
  A- 3 | DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   H    H    h    h    h   
  A- 2 | DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   H    H    h    h    h   

  Pair |                Dealer's up card
  hand | 2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9    10   A
-----------------------------------------------------------
  A- A | PDH  PDH  PDH  PDH  PDH  PH   PH   Ph   Ph   h   
 10-10 | S    S    S    S    S    S    S    S    S    S   
  9- 9 | PS   PS   PS   PS   PS   S    PS   ps   s    s   
  8- 8 | Ps   Ps   Ps   Ps   Ps   Ph   ph   ph   rh   rh  
  7- 7 | ps   ps   Ps   Ps   Ps   ph   h    h    rh   rh  
  6- 6 | ph   ph   Ps   Ps   Ps   h    h    h    h    rh  
  5- 5 | DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   h    h   
  4- 4 | dh   DH   DH   DPH  DPH  DH   h    h    h    h   
  3- 3 | ph   ph   Ph   Pdh  PDh  ph   h    h    h    rh  
  2- 2 | ph   Ph   Ph   Ph   PDH  Ph   h    h    h    h   
-----------------------------------------------------------

  Dbld |                Dealer's up card
  hand | 2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9    10   A
-----------------------------------------------------------
  445  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   s    s    s    s   
  355  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   s    s    s    s   
  346  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   s    s    s    s   
  337  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   s    s    s    s   
  256  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   s    s    s    s   
  247  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   s    s    s    s   
  238  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   s    s    s    s   
  229  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   s    s    s    s   
  A66  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   s    s    s    s   
  A57  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   s    s    s    s   
  A48  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   s    s    s    s   
  A39  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   s    s    s    s   
  A2T  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   s    s    s    s   
       |
  444  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   ds   s    s    s   
  345  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   ds   s    s    s   
  336  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   ds   s    s    s   
  255  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   ds   s    s    s   
  246  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   ds   s    s    s   
  237  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   ds   s    s    s   
  228  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   ds   s    s    s   
  A56  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   ds   s    s    s   
  A47  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   ds   s    s    s   
  A38  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   ds   s    s    s   
  A29  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   ds   s    s    s   
  AAT  | s    s    s    s    s    ds   ds   s    s    s   
       |
  344  | Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   ds  
  335  | Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   ds  
  245  | Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   ds  
  236  | Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   ds  
  227  | Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   ds  
       |
  334  | Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   ds   ds  
  244  | Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   ds   ds  
  235  | Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   ds   ds  
  226  | Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   ds   ds  
       |
  333  | Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   ds   ds   ds   ds  
  234  | Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   ds   ds   ds   ds  
  225  | Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   ds   ds   ds   ds  
       |
  233  | ds   ds   ds   Ds   Ds   ds   ds   ds   s    s   
  224  | ds   ds   ds   Ds   Ds   ds   ds   ds   s    s   
       |
  223  | s    s    ds   ds   ds   ds   s    s    s    s   
       |
  A34  | S    S    DS   DS   DS   S    S    s    s    s   
  A25  | S    S    DS   DS   DS   S    S    s    s    s   
  AA6  | S    S    DS   DS   DS   S    S    s    s    s   
       |
  A33  | ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   DS   ds   ds   ds   ds   s   
  A24  | ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   DS   ds   ds   ds   ds   s   
  AA5  | ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   DS   ds   ds   ds   ds   s   
       |
  A23  | ds   ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   ds   ds   ds   ds   s   
  AA4  | ds   ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   ds   ds   ds   ds   s   
       |
  A22  | ds   ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   ds   ds   ds   ds   s   
  AA3  | ds   ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   ds   ds   ds   ds   s   
       |
  AA2  | ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   ds   ds   ds   ds   s   
       |
  AAA  | ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   Ds   ds   ds   ds   ds   s   
       |

S = Stand
H = Hit
D = Double down
P = Split
R = Surrender

Uppercase indicates action is favorable for the player
Lowercase indicates action is favorable for the house

When more than one option is listed, options are listed from left to right in order of preference.

    Up  |
   card | Overall expected value (%)
---------------------------------
     2  |    9.659638084
     3  |   13.331171120
     4  |   17.307805999
     5  |   21.739116086
     6  |   25.331680067
     7  |   14.974688449
     8  |    5.835902578
     9  |   -4.087414307
    10  |  -16.839349150
     A  |  -29.198521340
---------------------------------
  Total |    0.579743857




    Up  |              Probability of outcome of dealer's hand
   card |  Bust   |   17    |   18    |   19    |   20    |   21    |Blackjack
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     2  | 0.35350 | 0.13966 | 0.13439 | 0.13002 | 0.12402 | 0.11841 | 0.00000
     3  | 0.37419 | 0.13430 | 0.13054 | 0.12523 | 0.12082 | 0.11493 | 0.00000
     4  | 0.39580 | 0.13056 | 0.12406 | 0.12127 | 0.11644 | 0.11187 | 0.00000
     5  | 0.41841 | 0.12184 | 0.12244 | 0.11758 | 0.11179 | 0.10795 | 0.00000
     6  | 0.42284 | 0.16571 | 0.10619 | 0.10643 | 0.10155 | 0.09728 | 0.00000
     7  | 0.26194 | 0.36921 | 0.13793 | 0.07843 | 0.07868 | 0.07382 | 0.00000
     8  | 0.24369 | 0.12894 | 0.35995 | 0.12872 | 0.06922 | 0.06947 | 0.00000
     9  | 0.22924 | 0.12031 | 0.11735 | 0.35185 | 0.12037 | 0.06088 | 0.00000
    10  | 0.21247 | 0.11191 | 0.11167 | 0.11194 | 0.34001 | 0.03482 | 0.07717
     A  | 0.11547 | 0.13002 | 0.13082 | 0.13059 | 0.13091 | 0.05350 | 0.30868
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Total | 0.28192 | 0.14525 | 0.13926 | 0.13368 | 0.17953 | 0.07287 | 0.04749


Composition-dependent stand/hit strategy variations:
----------------------------------------------------
( 24) Hard 16 vs. T : stand except, 88, 79, 6T, 466, 367, 33T, 268, 2266, 2239, 22336, 222T, 222226, A69, A366, A267, A23T, A2229, A22236, AA68, AA266, AA22T, AA22226, AAA67, AAAA66
(  1) Hard 12 vs. 4 : stand except, 2T
(  7) Soft 18 vs. A : hit except, A223, AA33, AA222, AAA23, AAAA22, AAAAA3, AAAAAA2
-----
  32
 
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