Returning Mispay?

[NightStalker]

Suppose a dealer mispay you and you and you were busy talking to waitress.
You have collected your money and pocketed it.. After few seconds, floor picks up the discard and arrange it back asking you to return the money?
You don't have enough money on the table to return the mispay, as you have already pocketed most of big chips..

What's your call on this? What if they come back after 30mins asking to return money? What if the money they are demanding is ~ 5% of your BR?

Are you bound to return money? Let's not talk ethics for now..

-NS

 

[The Chaperone]

It's as simple as determining the value of the mispay and the odds of them backing you off if you do not return the chips and the amount of EV that getting backed off would cost you. Also keep in mind, that if you do refuse to give the chips back, you will have to come back later to cash them or have someone else cash them for you and there is a cost associated with that as well. There is no one answer, only a formula.

 

[moo321]

It's likely you'll be backed off for refusing to return it. You will possibly encounter trouble cashing out (maybe 50% chance).

If it's worth it to burn this joint out, go ahead. I may refuse to return a mispay on a black chip bet at a casino I don't care about in a town I rarely visit.

My understanding is that they can't arrest you, although you definitely are civilly liable if it comes to a court. So, don't think you'll get away with $10k scot free.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

If they try to make you return a mispay, you can often hand-jive them and confuse them and end up paying less than you owe. If you're going to try this, it's best to not argue.

Last time I did this (and I have a witness!) they paid me $50 on a loss, and I happily paid them back $50.

 

[HockeXpert]

If they try to make you return a mispay, you can often hand-jive them and confuse them and end up paying less than you owe. If you're going to try this, it's best to not argue.

Last time I did this (and I have a witness!) they paid me $50 on a loss, and I happily paid them back $50.

I'm with AM here. Baffle them with bs about the amount you bet and underpay them back. Don't give them an opportunity or reason to review the tapes and verify your wager amount. If you force them to go to the tapes, they are going to hate you like poison. Not returning a mispay is in fact cheating and they may be able to arrest you for it, depending on the jurisdiction, if they can prove it.

 

[NightStalker]

Thanks guys.

It's as simple as determining the value of the mispay and the odds of them backing you off if you do not return the chips and the amount of EV that getting backed off would cost you. Also keep in mind, that if you do refuse to give the chips back, you will have to come back later to cash them or have someone else cash them for you and there is a cost associated with that as well. There is no one answer, only a formula.

Very true, was thinking the same while pondering the hand recreation..

If they try to make you return a mispay, you can often hand-jive them and confuse them and end up paying less than you owe. If you're going to try this, it's best to not argue.
Last time I did this (and I have a witness!) they paid me $50 on a loss, and I happily paid them back $50.

Mostly it work, but this time pit was smart asking for my initial bet also. I was very happy with the push..

Not returning a mispay is in fact cheating and they may be able to arrest you for it, depending on the jurisdiction, if they can prove it.

Disagree here..
What if I've already lost the money they have mispaid me - in the mean time? What if I handed all my winning chips to spouse and now she has left the property.. If they collect the mispay back before scooping the cards, it's justified.. How am supposed to believe that they have rewinded the cards correctly or their surveillance is not lying??

FWIW- Net result:
I paid all mispay back with cash from my pocket..

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I'm with AM here. Baffle them with bs about the amount you bet and underpay them back. Don't give them an opportunity or reason to review the tapes and verify your wager amount. If you force them to go to the tapes, they are going to hate you like poison. Not returning a mispay is in fact cheating and they may be able to arrest you for it, depending on the jurisdiction, if they can prove it.

I disagree that it is cheating, any more than mispaying me is cheating.

Mispaying a player can be cheating if it is done intentionally, but once they willingly put those chips in my hand I'm in possession of them and the burden of proof is on the casino that I'm not entitled to them. If I was walking out the door and casino people walked up to me and said "Hey, we overpaid you on a hand earlier tonight, you owe us $100" I'd tell them "Send me a demand letter and a copy of the tape and I'll give it to my lawyer." No one is obliged to accept another person's observation or opinion in such a matter, that has to be done by a court.

To switch it around, let's say I went to the casino manager an hour after hand and said a dealer underpaid me, I want $100. I'd have to complain to the gaming authority and possibly go to court, I'm not going to be able to call the police and have the dealer and manager arrested for larceny (even in a fair world.)

 

[pit15]

Refuse to return a mispay when asked = backed off.

Is the backoff worth the amount of the mispay?

 

[Baberuth]

Give it back with respect and humor

You should have a plan in order should this happen. It should be part of your cover act to keep the game alive and you off the bad guy list.
1. Have your own reply ready, but it should show respect. Try to throw in some humor.
2. "It must have happened or you wouldn't be telling me it did. I better pay more attention."

It will be over fast and everyone can be friends. You are the good guy now. Some more comments might happen, but keep joking and keep everyone relaxed. The pit supervisor is going to be a little tense asking for money back. They get some pretty bad responses, as you might imagine.
Out of no where a guy is asked to return his bet and the winnings paid and in most cases he is already losing. Being unprepared for this can bring on a response from hell and the pit sup knows it. He will take a sigh of relief with your courteous response. Remember they do this all the time and it will happen to a player rarely.
During the exchange an evaluation will be made as to your status. A refusal is going to get you banned and picture on file and a close review showing AP status. Not good. Giving it back is part of what might happen when keeping it and you need to be prepared.

 

[HockeXpert]

I disagree that it is cheating, any more than mispaying me is cheating.

Wouldn't you consider it cheating if the casino took $1k from you on a push and refused to return it? A casino mispay is cheating if it is done intentionally. If there are rogue dealers out there who deal seconds or select the up card, then there are certainly some who mispay drunks and easy prey.

The difference between a player and the casino is a preponderance of evidence. As players, we have no proof whatsoever, other than eye witnesses most of whom are drunk, as to what took place whereas the casino may have video evidence that would supercede any eye witnesses.

Whether or not a casino would bother to try to prosecute would depend on the amount in question and the possible negative implication a lawsuit would have on their business. I certainly never could see MGM-Mirage going after someone for a $50 wager but I could see a sawdust joint trying everything in their power to recover $5,000.

 

[shadroch]

The difference is intent. I didn't intend to try to get overpaid. Hence, I'm not cheating.

 

[pit15]

You should have a plan in order should this happen. It should be part of your cover act to keep the game alive and you off the bad guy list.
1. Have your own reply ready, but it should show respect. Try to throw in some humor.
2. "It must have happened or you wouldn't be telling me it did. I better pay more attention."

It will be over fast and everyone can be friends. You are the good guy now. Some more comments might happen, but keep joking and keep everyone relaxed. The pit supervisor is going to be a little tense asking for money back. They get some pretty bad responses, as you might imagine.
Out of no where a guy is asked to return his bet and the winnings paid and in most cases he is already losing. Being unprepared for this can bring on a response from hell and the pit sup knows it. He will take a sigh of relief with your courteous response. Remember they do this all the time and it will happen to a player rarely.
During the exchange an evaluation will be made as to your status. A refusal is going to get you banned and picture on file and a close review showing AP status. Not good. Giving it back is part of what might happen when keeping it and you need to be prepared.

The only time I've been asked to return a mispay is when the dealer / pit notices it as it's happening. I just put it back on the layout exactly how the dealer put it originally and they correct it, end of story.

If the eye called down about it, for the type of AP I do, I would refuse to give it back because even if I do I'm getting backed off anyway. By the time they're asking me for the money back I've already been photographed, my rating card, if I was using one has already been flagged, and they'll most likely be scrambling to find a dealer to replace the one at my table.

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

If the eye called down about it, for the type of AP I do, I would refuse to give it back because even if I do I'm getting backed off anyway.

I'm not sure I follow. I'm assuming you're not so obvious as to alert surveillance of your play during a normal payoff error correction. I agree with what you said earlier, though—is the error worth the backoff/potential barring?

I once corrected an error for 2 units in my favor after a change transaction, but the dealer insisted that she paid me right. This was a "lucky" dealer of mine, so I had a pretty good relationship with her, and I wanted to make it right so she wouldn't get in trouble later. She called the floor, who agreed with the dealer and added that she had checked the original transaction. I said thank you and shut up.

 

[pit15]

I'm not sure I follow. I'm assuming you're not so obvious as to alert surveillance of your play during a normal payoff error correction. I agree with what you said earlier, though—is the error worth the backoff/potential barring?

I once corrected an error for 2 units in my favor after a change transaction, but the dealer insisted that she paid me right. This was a "lucky" dealer of mine, so I had a pretty good relationship with her, and I wanted to make it right so she wouldn't get in trouble later. She called the floor, who agreed with the dealer and added that she had checked the original transaction. I said thank you and shut up.

I hole card, if surveillance is hawking my game I'm ****ed.

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

I hole card, if surveillance is hawking my game I'm ****ed.

I know what style you play, but I'm wondering why you think that surveillance catching a mispay automatically means that you're nailed? Watching cash/cheque transactions is a routine part of surveillance's job, and if the dealer mispays you, that doesn't mean that they know what you're up to necessarily. Unless of course you're making really heinous moves, like hitting hard 17s or folding pairs in a game where a dealer is revealing mucked hands.

 

[HockeXpert]

The difference is intent. I didn't intend to try to get overpaid. Hence, I'm not cheating.

Not intending to get overpaid but intentionally keeping what is proven to not legally be yours is cheating.

 

[shadroch]

Not intending to get overpaid but intentionally keeping what is proven to not legally be yours is cheating.

I believe you are mistaken. Pete Rose got banned from a sports book after he refused to give back money when an employee mistakenly overpaid him.
Even when told the guy would be terminated, he didn't care and there was nothing the casino could do about it except bar him from further betting.This happened perhaps six years ago at either Tropicana or aladdin and was written about fairly extensively.

 

[pit15]

I know what style you play, but I'm wondering why you think that surveillance catching a mispay automatically means that you're nailed? Watching cash/cheque transactions is a routine part of surveillance's job, and if the dealer mispays you, that doesn't mean that they know what you're up to necessarily. Unless of course you're making really heinous moves, like hitting hard 17s or folding pairs in a game where a dealer is revealing mucked hands.

on OCP most likely if someone's watching my game I'm nailed. I've seen hundreds of mispays and never once a call to correct one of them.

 

[Baberuth]

Ploppy mistake short story

I was at a table where a ploppy corrected a dealer pay for a loss to another player. It ended up the ploppy paying off the guy whose hand he corrected to avoid further problems. Cost the ploppy $80.

 

[NightStalker]

Joke?

I was at a table where a ploppy corrected a dealer pay for a loss to another player. It ended up the ploppy paying off the guy whose hand he corrected to avoid further problems. Cost the ploppy $80.

Why would a ploppy pay? gun-point?