Returning Mispay?
- Thread starter NightStalker
- Start date
Automatic Monkey
Banned
Not cheating. Cheating is a felony and I would have to prove the casino actively mispaid me and did so with intent to deprive me of my winnings. Under most gaming authorities they are required to take video and that video must be available for inspection by the authorities, including my attorney. Failure to preserve the tape would result in penalties to the casino much greater than $1000 and probably hurt them in civil court too, where the judge may not only give me my money back but may award multiple damages and legal fees.HockeXpert said:
All of that is separate from the felony known as cheating, which is dealt with in criminal court and has different standards. Cheating refers to misbehavior in the betting or playing of a hand affecting the outcome or payout, not refusing to comply with a casino's or player's request after the hand is over. A dealer using marked cards or a false shuffle are examples of cheating.
blackchipjim
Well-Known Member
The returns dept?
I had a dealer mispay me big time on another game not bj and I didn't let it slid. The dealers that I play against at one joint kinda know me and I don't want a reputation of question. The joints I don't frequent that often is another thing. The dealer proceded to thank me and tell me a story about a player that was asked the next time he came in for the money back on a big mispay and subsequent banning from the property for the refusal to do so.
I had a dealer mispay me big time on another game not bj and I didn't let it slid. The dealers that I play against at one joint kinda know me and I don't want a reputation of question. The joints I don't frequent that often is another thing. The dealer proceded to thank me and tell me a story about a player that was asked the next time he came in for the money back on a big mispay and subsequent banning from the property for the refusal to do so.
If the mis-pay is big enough, I have associates who were visited at their suite for retrieval by security/managment. At the craps tables, they were given 2 grays by mistake instead of whites during a large dollar color up. The eye caught it and corrected it in their room.
I also have a wonderful wife that has received multiple checks over $100.00 from more than one property when she accidently leaves credits in her video poker machines...high stakes areas.
My rule is simple, if it's not yours don't take it and if it's short, get it. I never worry about a strangers short or over pay because it's not my business. Why let the pit personel know tht you are sharp enough to watch everyone's hand?
I also have a wonderful wife that has received multiple checks over $100.00 from more than one property when she accidently leaves credits in her video poker machines...high stakes areas.
My rule is simple, if it's not yours don't take it and if it's short, get it. I never worry about a strangers short or over pay because it's not my business. Why let the pit personel know tht you are sharp enough to watch everyone's hand?
HockeXpert
Well-Known Member
I am going to rephrase my comment from cheating to stealing.moo321 said:
You are correct that this acceptance of a mispay is not cheating. If a dealer was to pay you 5 purple instead of 5 red and you pocket the 5 purple but then the pc comes over and asks you for the purple back because they saw the mispay. If you were to refuse to return the pruple, imho, that is stealing. The severity of the act of stealing is proportionate with the amount "stolen". One could potentially be charged with grand theft (I doubt a casino would bother with petty theft). The defense would be possession. Since the recipient of the mispay is in possession of the mispay, it could be argued that possession constitutes rightful ownership and therefore the casino may be SOL but I doubt they would roll out the welcome mat for you if you tried to return.:laugh:
moo321
Well-Known Member
It's not going to be theft. It's a civil issue. You would definitely lose if they dragged you to court, and you could be barred and they can legally refuse to cash the chips. It's tortious, but I don't think it's criminal at all.HockeXpert said:I am going to rephrase my comment from cheating to stealing.
The severity of the act of stealing is proportionate with the amount "stolen". One could potentially be charged with grand theft (I doubt a casino would bother with petty theft). The defense would be possession. Since the recipient of the mispay is in possession of the mispay, it could be argued that possession constitutes rightful ownership and therefore the casino may be SOL but I doubt they would roll out the welcome mat for you if you tried to return.:laugh:
I doubt there's a prosecutor in the country that would get involved in prosecuting "theft" because of a dealer's error. You'd have to prove they intended to commit a crime (mens rea) and accepting an error simply doesn't apply.
It's probably tortious. It may be immoral. They do have ways to recover the money, and legally you owe it to them. But it's probably not a crime to refuse to pay back.
Automatic Monkey
Banned
Being morality in the Western world is an individual thing, for something to be called immoral it has to be contrary to a moral code that one agreed to follow. I made no promises to the casino thus I don't feel I owe them a mispaid chip. Their goal is to get as much money as possible off their opponents in the game, and I'll do unto them as they do unto us.
At the same time no one is obliged to subscribe to my morality either so if you feel funny about accepting a mispay from a casino, don't. Same as for tipping the dealer- if you feel tipping is the right thing to do, don't let anybody tell you otherwise.There's no -EV like feeling dishonorable about oneself.
At the same time no one is obliged to subscribe to my morality either so if you feel funny about accepting a mispay from a casino, don't. Same as for tipping the dealer- if you feel tipping is the right thing to do, don't let anybody tell you otherwise.There's no -EV like feeling dishonorable about oneself.
Blue Efficacy
Well-Known Member
+1automatic monkey said:being morality in the western world is an individual thing, for something to be called immoral it has to be contrary to a moral code that one agreed to follow. I made no promises to the casino thus i don't feel i owe them a mispaid chip. Their goal is to get as much money as possible off their opponents in the game, and i'll do unto them as they do unto us.
At the same time no one is obliged to subscribe to my morality either so if you feel funny about accepting a mispay from a casino, don't. Same as for tipping the dealer- if you feel tipping is the right thing to do, don't let anybody tell you otherwise.there's no -ev like feeling dishonorable about oneself.
moo321
Well-Known Member
Hmm, I don't know about that. The US Constitution appeals to a natural law, as do the main religions of the west (Judaism and Christianity). These all believe in an objective morality that all people know about. See Romans 1-2 in Christianity.Automatic Monkey said:
Your moral code may be relativistic, but I'm not sure I can agree that the Western world has accepted moral relativism.
/highjack
Automatic Monkey
Banned
I agree that there's a general code all Westerners with normal psychology follow, but the details can vary wildly. Christian and Jewish morality are a little bit different, and which system you use depends on which one you've declared yourself to be. In some moral systems even patronizing a casino is unacceptable. Thus I believe if gaming is OK vs. not OK is a normal variation in the general moral code, so must be little details like what we do with a mispaid chip at the gaming table.moo321 said:
aslan
Well-Known Member
So right.Automatic Monkey said:
People should not forget the times dealers seek to collect winning bets either deliberately or mistakenly. People should also not forget the great pains taken by casinos to deceive the gaming public into harboring unrealistic expectations of winning.
That said, it may still be wrong to accept a mis-pay, depending on your particular moral code. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I do accept mis-pays.
sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
well, the OP wasn't wanting to get into ethics, sorta thing.
so what's he really fishing for here then? basically his continued solvency as an AP and his ability to keep out of a 'messy' sort of situation, i should think.
just me maybe, i'd say return the miss pay.
ethics, morality, religion, law or whatever just go ahead and pay it back if asked and the miss pay can be proved.
kind of how it says in the wizard of odds ten commandments of gambling:
http://wizardofodds.com/gambling/tencom.html
Thou shalt honor thy gambling debts.
so what's he really fishing for here then? basically his continued solvency as an AP and his ability to keep out of a 'messy' sort of situation, i should think.
just me maybe, i'd say return the miss pay.
ethics, morality, religion, law or whatever just go ahead and pay it back if asked and the miss pay can be proved.
kind of how it says in the wizard of odds ten commandments of gambling:
http://wizardofodds.com/gambling/tencom.html
Thou shalt honor thy gambling debts.
aslan
Well-Known Member
I had to go back to the OP and, yes, he was not fishing for an ethics answer. I agree, just give it back if asked and it can be proven. I categorize it more as correction of an error, same if the house neglected to pay me for a win and I had to summon the PB. OTOH, I'd prefer that they outlawed "instant replay" for mis-pays, unless caught at the time of the error, and settled before the next deal. After that, all claims should be null and void; i.e., if you snooze, you lose. I wonder where the gaming commissions are on this?sagefr0g said:
blackchipjim
Well-Known Member
repay mispays?
There was one lady at a table that actually ratted a dealer out for a mispay and was so persistent the other players were astonished at her behavior. The dealer was just going to blow it off but the lady was mad that he paid another lady's losing and started almost yelling it. The rest of the table just sat and stared at this nutjob during her rants myself included. I rarely bring mispays to the dealers attention and just act like I won and double up. I guess my conscience comes and goes at times without reason but I don't really care about ethics when playing.
There was one lady at a table that actually ratted a dealer out for a mispay and was so persistent the other players were astonished at her behavior. The dealer was just going to blow it off but the lady was mad that he paid another lady's losing and started almost yelling it. The rest of the table just sat and stared at this nutjob during her rants myself included. I rarely bring mispays to the dealers attention and just act like I won and double up. I guess my conscience comes and goes at times without reason but I don't really care about ethics when playing.
Brock Windsor
Well-Known Member
Remember this one?
http://www.ucc.ie/law/restitution/rdg/9801007.htm
The case is quoted in Blackjack and the Law. Too bad the guy plead out rather than getting the courts to make a ruling. I believe the money is rightfully the casinos in that case but I don't think they ever could have gotten a theft conviction without the guilty plea. This case is in Canada.
-BW
http://www.ucc.ie/law/restitution/rdg/9801007.htm
The case is quoted in Blackjack and the Law. Too bad the guy plead out rather than getting the courts to make a ruling. I believe the money is rightfully the casinos in that case but I don't think they ever could have gotten a theft conviction without the guilty plea. This case is in Canada.
-BW
HockeXpert
Well-Known Member
Certainly on the casinos' side in Nevada!aslan said: