Saw someone get mistakenly Half-Shoed

[Dyepaintball12]

I was in New Orleans yesterday and was watching a shoe game as the dealer was about to place the cut card. Anyway as she is about to place the card in the shoe she seems to remember something and calls the PB over.

She whispers something to him, he looks over at a young kid sitting at 3rd base, she moves her hand with the card from about 1.5 decks in to 3 decks in and the PB nods, again looking at the kid.

I had seen nothing prior to this so I figured this is the first time I was watching a kid get half shoed.

I decide to stick around to see if this kid was actually counting and it turns out he absolutely was not. He was the only person at the table betting greens and he was spreading widely from about $25 to $125 but it was all over the place with no correlation the count.

Just confirms my thinking that many PB's have no idea what they are doing.


- Dye

 

[farmdoggy]

Looks like you and the casino were the only victims here... Won't be wonging in to that shoe :laugh:. I wonder how much they thought he was making spreading 1-5 on 6 decks?

Another thing is that 3 decks cut is way overkill... 2 cut would be enough to get me to leave.

 

[Jack_Black]

for every PB that doesn't know what they're doing, there are two PB's that count cards on their off time.

never underestimate your opponent.

 

[blackjackomaha]

Dealer should have minded her own business and stick to dealing the cards. :whip:

 

[NightStalker]

ha ha

for every PB that doesn't know what they're doing, there are two PB's that count cards on their off time.

never underestimate your opponent.

wrong assumption.

 

[Friendo]

First Casino Heat Experience

This takes me back.

I first played blackjack in 2004, on a business trip to Vegas. I didn't have the time to learn to count, but I knew that not knowing basic strategy could be costly, so I studied a basic strategy chart for a week or so before. I probably played everything right but the doubling on soft hands, which would not quite stick in my brain.

The second place I played was the Four Queens. I could be wrong, but I'm 90% certain that was the place.

$5 minimum, table chock full o' degenerates, and a wonderful Iranian woman dealing double deck in a headscarf. I bought in for a couple of hours of an aggressive $5-$10 spread.

Shortly after I place my first bet, this greasy, pasty-faced pit critter glares right at me. Beyond curiosity, beyond a fixed gaze: I mean the evil eye, complete with a sneer of disgust, so powerful that I wonder if I have been mistaken for the guy who shot his dog and burned his farm.

In a sense, I had been made, demographically. I was a technical/engineering type, well-groomed, non-smoking, not wearing a Hawaiian shirt, and with no visible stains or cigarette burns in my clothing - a rarity at that table that night.

I don't have a long counting history, but I have never had this sort of experience when actually counting.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Oh Paranoia

Haven't you guys heard? The casinos don't care; apparently, you can spread $25 to $400 with no concerns. Tongue in cheek.:laugh:

 

[blackjack avenger]

Not Paranoid if They Are Out to Get You!

never underestimate your opponent.

I agree with the gentleman(?) on this point

 

[Craps Master]

Just confirms my thinking that many PB's have no idea what they are doing.

Happens a lot. I've seen ploppies get backed-off and 86'd, and I've even seen ploppies appear on Griffin fliers. They still don't have it all quite figured out.

 

[21forme]

for every PB that doesn't know what they're doing, there are two PB's that count cards on their off time.

No way. Even 1 in 100 is probably a large overestimation

never underestimate your opponent.

This part I agree with.

 

[Dyepaintball12]

No way. Even 1 in 100 is probably a large overestimation


This part I agree with.

x2. I have met with a prominent casino consultant several times who states that the vast majority of PBs have no clue.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

x2. I have met with a prominent casino consultant several times who states that the vast majority of PBs have no clue.

It's true. This industry does not attract intellectual giants. Even when you get off the floor to the executive level you will not find as many Ivy League MBA's as guys who went to college only because their parents wanted them to and went to work for a casino because they thought they wouldn't have to do anything.

 

[Jack_Black]

No way. Even 1 in 100 is probably a large overestimation


This part I agree with.

I did exaggerate quite a bit. but you know and I know the PB/counters semi personally. and even if they don't count on their off time, they know the basics for detecting and stopping a counter.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Pit Brains

It's not that important how knowledgeable the casino staff is. It's a matter of do they take countermeasures. They can have a lot of false positives and kick out bad players with you!

 

[bigplayer]

for every PB that doesn't know what they're doing, there are two PB's that count cards on their off time.

never underestimate your opponent.

I would say it's more like maybe 2 or 3 pit critters per casino could count down a six deck using high low and make the conversions to a True Count. Pitbosses are not responsible for game protection anymore.

 

[farmdoggy]

I would say it's more like maybe 2 or 3 pit critters per casino could count down a six deck using high low and make the conversions to a True Count. Pitbosses are not responsible for game protection anymore.

I'll buy that... Both 2/3 and 1/100 sounded absurd on opposite ends.

 

[moo321]

I would say it's more like maybe 2 or 3 pit critters per casino could count down a six deck using high low and make the conversions to a True Count. Pitbosses are not responsible for game protection anymore.

I don't think so. I'd be surprised if 50% of casinos have anyone capable of counting on any given shift. That's excluding TC, insurance, indexes, any of that. Just able to tell the difference between a heavy and a light deck.



To make a comparison, how much do you guys know about casino operations? How many of us are really knowledgeable about how casinos are run?

1. How many people are in the surveillance room at a casino?
2. What are the ranks in a casino?
3. If you wanted to talk to the man at the top, would you ask for the dual rate, shift manager, pit boss, executive host, floor supervisor, table games supervisor, table games manager, surveillance director, slot supervisor, security director, or casino manager?
4. If you ran into one of the above named employees, how likely is it that they are the highest ranking employee on this shift?
5. How likely is it that one of those people is making a backoff decision?
6. Why do you have to put cash down on the table when buying in?
7. Why do dealers "wash" their hand whenever they touch anything?
8. Name 3 ways to cheat at every game in the house: craps, baccarat, slots, poker, blackjack, 3 card poker, roulette.


These are mostly rhetorical (although you should learn them), but they indicate how little some of us may know about how the other side works. Now, imagine how many of the casino people know how our side works?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I don't think so. I'd be surprised if 50% of casinos have anyone capable of counting on any given shift. That's excluding TC, insurance, indexes, any of that. Just able to tell the difference between a heavy and a light deck.



To make a comparison, how much do you guys know about casino operations? How many of us are really knowledgeable about how casinos are run?

1. How many people are in the surveillance room at a casino?
2. What are the ranks in a casino?
3. If you wanted to talk to the man at the top, would you ask for the dual rate, shift manager, pit boss, executive host, floor supervisor, table games supervisor, table games manager, surveillance director, slot supervisor, security director, or casino manager?
4. If you ran into one of the above named employees, how likely is it that they are the highest ranking employee on this shift?
5. How likely is it that one of those people is making a backoff decision?
6. Why do you have to put cash down on the table when buying in?
7. Why do dealers "wash" their hand whenever they touch anything?
8. Name 3 ways to cheat at every game in the house: craps, baccarat, slots, poker, blackjack, 3 card poker, roulette.


These are mostly rhetorical (although you should learn them), but they indicate how little some of us may know about how the other side works. Now, imagine how many of the casino people know how our side works?

Some excellent thoughts there.

You can't overstate how few people in a casino can count and identify a skilled player accurately. This is useful to know. The conventional wisdom is for counters to avoid one another to diffuse attention, but I take the opposite approach. As many counters as possible should fill up a pit and a casino as possible, at the same time. There is likely no more than one skilled observer in the house, and he can't watch us all!

 

[Dyepaintball12]

Some excellent thoughts there.

You can't overstate how few people in a casino can count and identify a skilled player accurately. This is useful to know. The conventional wisdom is for counters to avoid one another to diffuse attention, but I take the opposite approach. As many counters as possible should fill up a pit and a casino as possible, at the same time. There is likely no more than one skilled observer in the house, and he can't watch us all!

We call that the swarm sir and it has and will continue to work!

 

[Automatic Monkey]

We call that the swarm sir and it has and will continue to work!

Yes, the Cicada method! The cicada is very slow, has no sting and no evasive ability, and it's only evolutionary defense is coming out billions at a time.

Considering psychology, if a casino only gets one counter a week, and the surveillance guy suddenly sees 20 of them at once, he will not believe what he is seeing and no one will believe him if he reports it. At least not for a while.

And if each counter argues and makes a fuss as he is backed off, it could take hours for the security team to deal with them all. Over those hours the rest of the players could do whatever they want. Lots of places this could go, and it would be interesting to see how a store reacts.