Shufflemaster Blackjack Slot Machine follow-up

[Kasi]

Kasi,

Land-based casinos and Internet casinos work differently to get their hold % on a game. For a land-based casino, the amount of money won on a table (hold) is divided by the amount of money taken on the table (drop) to get the hold %.

So, if a player sits down with $200 and plays for 4 hours, losing $40 betting $10 per hand, the hold % would be 20%. However, the player may be playing at a house edge of just 0.5% - it depends a lot on the speed of the particular game and how long the player sits there for.

For the Internet, it is easy to monitor and record exact amounts. So, Internet casinos will look at the total amount that has been bet (not the amount cashed in) and then compare this figure with the total amount that has been paid out. So, the same player above would be recorded as having bet, say, $4,000 with $3,960 being paid back to him/her. The 'Payback' would be recorded as 3960/4000 x 100 = 99%. It is easier to see what the overall house edge is, for the players, using this method.

Although it depends on the location, a typical 'Strip' casino would record a hold, on multi-deck blackjack, at around 12-14%, single deck Blackjack (not 6/5) at around 7-8% and 6/5 Blackjack at around 21%.

Internet sites roughly record a 'Payback' of around 97-98% for their Blackjack which suggests the 2-3% house edge (for 'average' players) that has been stated earlier.

Hope this helps.

Thanks Geoff. Appreciate the overview.

Although I've never really figured out why the casinos bother to calculate losses/wins vs buy-ins. What with players leaving after 2 hands, stashing chips, buying in with chips instead of cash, I just don't get what they are measuring or what value it has to them.

Now losses over total wagers makes sense to me lol.

 

[Geoff Hall]

Thanks Geoff. Appreciate the overview.

Although I've never really figured out why the casinos bother to calculate losses/wins vs buy-ins. What with players leaving after 2 hands, stashing chips, buying in with chips instead of cash, I just don't get what they are measuring or what value it has to them.

Now losses over total wagers makes sense to me lol.

Yes, you can artificially reduce the hold % on any game if you buy in for a large amount and then leave after a couple of hands.

IMO there are a lot of casino managers that are hooked into the hold %. Personally, I would focus more on the actual win as this is the figure that pays the bills at the end of the day.

 

[Kasi]

IMO there are a lot of casino managers that are hooked into the hold %. Personally, I would focus more on the actual win as this is the figure that pays the bills at the end of the day.

Well, you, of anyone, ought to know what the heck they look at and what they think is important.

Must be tough marketing a game to people that focus on meaningless stats.

 

[iwantblackjack]

Land-based casinos and Internet casinos work differently to get their hold % on a game. For a land-based casino, the amount of money won on a table (hold) is divided by the amount of money taken on the table (drop) to get the hold %. Although it depends on the location, a typical 'Strip' casino would record a hold, on multi-deck blackjack, at around 12-14%, single deck Blackjack (not 6/5) at around 7-8% and 6/5 Blackjack at around 21%.

One quick question, how do you know the casino's holds from multi-deck and single-deck and 6/5BJ from Strip casinos? Which casinos post that info? (i thought Vegas gaming show "total wins" by county areas and dont report publicly about the holds for games and casinos; AC casinos nicely report their holds and takes, but by game, not table type.)

And, today I just read "Pa Casinos Adding Virtual Table Games" article dated June 7, 2007; ShuffleMaster said it has leased 26 of its electronic table game machines to the PA slot casinos; the Pa Gaming Control Board has approved just the BJ program, since the machine is considered "legal if the odds are random and one player's decisions do not affect another player's odds."

 

[EasyRhino]

"legal if the odds are random and one player's decisions do not affect another player's odds."

It's illegal to change the flow of the cards?

 

[iwantblackjack]

I thought it sounded wierd too. I forgot to paste part of the article: While Pennsylvania bans traditional table games like poker and blackjack that are run by a human dealer, a machine that offers the games can be legal if the odds are random and one player's decisions do not affect another player's odds.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I thought it sounded wierd too. I forgot to paste part of the article: While Pennsylvania bans traditional table games like poker and blackjack that are run by a human dealer, a machine that offers the games can be legal if the odds are random and one player's decisions do not affect another player's odds.

That's interesting. It would require an infinite deck game and a true random shuffle, because without those things player decisions do have very subtle effects on house edge.

 

[ChefJJ]

That's interesting. It would require an infinite deck game and a true random shuffle, because without those things player decisions do have very subtle effects on house edge.

I think the point is being missed...it's no different that a slot machine: it knows before the cards are dealt for the hand whether you are going to win or lose.

 

[shadroch]

I think the point is being missed...it's no different that a slot machine: it knows before the cards are dealt for the hand whether you are going to win or lose.

I don't think thats the case.If you are dealt a BJ and chose to hit it,it obviously can't give you aother card with the same payout.I think every player has his own infinite deck.

 

[ChefJJ]

I don't think thats the case.If you are dealt a BJ and chose to hit it,it obviously can't give you aother card with the same payout.I think every player has his own infinite deck.

If they let you hit a BJ! That wouldn't affect the next guy if the deck is infinte.

I missed AMs point though, which makes plenty sense...but if there is an infinite deck, why would each player need one? Regardless of whether each player had their own infinite deck or if there is one for the whole thing, it's the same, right?

 

[EasyRhino]

Also, even if there was a shared deck, it wouldn't really affect the next player's odds any, would it? I mean, it could affect their results, depending on how the taken card affected the count, but the effect wouldn't be in any way knowable before that card is taken?

I am curious if the deck is shared or not and infinite or not.

 

[21forme]

The law states each player's play may not affect the odds of any other. If it's not an infinite deck, the odds are affected, as some cards are present in lower numbers. So if not an infinite deck for the table, perhaps each player has his own deck or decks?

 

[Ronnie]

I think the point is being missed...it's no different that a slot machine: it knows before the cards are dealt for the hand whether you are going to win or lose.

I doubt that is the case since all five players, even though their hands may be independent of each other, go against the same dealer upcards.

By the way I do not think you are permitted to hit a blackjack, as someone mentioned here. I think it just declares you a winner and skips to the next player.

 

[shadroch]

I doubt that is the case since all five players, even though their hands may be independent of each other, go against the same dealer upcards.

By the way I do not think you are permitted to hit a blackjack, as someone mentioned here. I think it just declares you a winner and skips to the next player.

Not being able to double down on a soft 21 seals the deal for me. You won't see me on these machines.

 

[dacium]

Its definatly a bad game.

0.68% is what we have with those same rules, but we get dealer peek and DAS. So with those in there I think it save to say (as other people said) the house edge is very high (around 1% or more)