sick to my stomach...

[golfnut101]

For those that have not read any of my posts, I am a relative newcomer to counting. I have counted in casinos for approx. 6 months, starting w/ bs, progressing to KO rookie, and now KO preferred, using half the indices suggested in book. I had my best session to date three nights ago, winning 68 units in under 30 min. Tonight, I lost 106 units in two sessions at two different casinos. The feeling I had on that lonely three hr drive home reminded me of seeing my dad gamble my childhhod away. He would come home after 2-3 day binge, with no cheque or money, leaving mom to fend for five kids. I swore I would never do that to my wife and kids, and can honestly say after 23 yrs of marriage, I have not. Not looking for sympathy here, rather, any input from more experienced players. Honestly, if you choose to reply, has this ever gotten in theway of family/marriage ? My wife is tremendously supportive(she was their when I won a few times) and I am not a 'emotional' type of gambler. I fully understand sd, as tonight I should have walked away a winner with the high count I had. But, I sit here sick to my stomach, and I'm not so sure I want to experience this again. I must be honest that I recently sold a business to get out of debt, and am basically starting over. Own a house and such, but $$ is tight, and am playing on a limited br. So, should I decide to move on to train modelling or crosswords, I would like to thank all who have replied to my silly posts before. Seems like a real brotherhood here. Best of luck everyone.

sincerely
the golfnut

 

[zengrifter]

For those that have not read any of my posts, I am a relative newcomer to counting. I have counted in casinos for approx. 6 months, starting w/ bs, progressing to KO rookie, and now KO preferred, using half the indices suggested in book.

Why not ALL of them?

I had my best session to date three nights ago, winning 68 units in under 30 min.

Just random flux.

Tonight, I lost 106 units in two sessions at two different casinos.

Just random flux.

The feeling I had on that lonely three hr drive home reminded me of seeing my dad gamble my childhhod away. He would come home after 2-3 day binge, with no cheque or money, leaving mom to fend for five kids. I swore I would never do that to my wife and kids, and can honestly say after 23 yrs of marriage, I have not. Not looking for sympathy here, rather, any input from more experienced players. Honestly, if you choose to reply, has this ever gotten in theway of family/marriage ?

Yes, as can golf or slotcar racing for that matter. Things that we are passionate about can conflict with other 'priorities'.

$$ is tight, and am playing on a limited br. So, should I decide to move on to train modelling or crosswords, I would like to thank all who have replied to my silly posts before. Seems like a real brotherhood here. Best of luck everyone.

You know the BR considerations. Ask yourself if its worth your time to play with an EV of $10/hr and a flux of several 100 up/down. Perhaps its NOT. Which is why, in part, I advocate joint-teaming - the $ and % risk remains constant while the EV is magnifyed several fold.

You are doing a lot of soul-searching for a net minus swing of 38u! zg

 

[ScottH]

For those that have not read any of my posts, I am a relative newcomer to counting. I have counted in casinos for approx. 6 months, starting w/ bs, progressing to KO rookie, and now KO preferred, using half the indices suggested in book. I had my best session to date three nights ago, winning 68 units in under 30 min. Tonight, I lost 106 units in two sessions at two different casinos. The feeling I had on that lonely three hr drive home reminded me of seeing my dad gamble my childhhod away. He would come home after 2-3 day binge, with no cheque or money, leaving mom to fend for five kids. I swore I would never do that to my wife and kids, and can honestly say after 23 yrs of marriage, I have not. Not looking for sympathy here, rather, any input from more experienced players. Honestly, if you choose to reply, has this ever gotten in theway of family/marriage ? My wife is tremendously supportive(she was their when I won a few times) and I am not a 'emotional' type of gambler. I fully understand sd, as tonight I should have walked away a winner with the high count I had. But, I sit here sick to my stomach, and I'm not so sure I want to experience this again. I must be honest that I recently sold a business to get out of debt, and am basically starting over. Own a house and such, but $$ is tight, and am playing on a limited br. So, should I decide to move on to train modelling or crosswords, I would like to thank all who have replied to my silly posts before. Seems like a real brotherhood here. Best of luck everyone.

sincerely
the golfnut

You should only be gambling with money, that if lost, will not affect your life in any way. I, like yourself, am new to card counting, so my advice might not be the best. But I personally only use money that if I happen to lose would not be a life changing event. That way it can never affect your family, marriage, or anything else important in your life. Even if you have a ROR of 1%, you still have to be prepared to lose all you money if you happen to be that unlucky 1 out of 100.

So if money is tight for you right now you could always step away from counting for a while until you have enough money to play comfortably. Card counting will still be there for you if you decide to return. But I think it's important to have a big enough bankroll for a good sized ROR and to play comfortably. Most importantly though, you have to have money that you can afford to lose, so it won't cause any problems.

Best of luck to you!

 

[bj bob]

Following up

on Zg's thoughts. It seems that you are becoming rather philosophical about your last session, which happens to a lot of us, but you've got to step back and assess your goals and approach to the game. Is it recreation? Is it just a learning curve and you will improve your game down the road? As Zg said, -68 Units is just a natural flux in the "stream" of blackjack experience...really no big mathematical deal!!. What may be a big deal, however, is what these 68U represent. Is it $340 @$5, or $6,800 @$100. Big dif especially if you cannot currently afford the latter. Since you referred to your upbringing, it may be that your loss was quite significant and you are indeed doing some soul searching. That's a question you're going to have to answer for yourself. Meanwhile, get a handle on what you are trying to accomplish. If it's recreation and your 68U were just CHUMP CHANGE, don't worry about it. If it came out of your living budget, that's another matter. BTW, learn the rest of your indices!!

 

[ScottH]

BTW, learn the rest of your indices!!

Agreed. There are only 18 in KO-Preferred! It shouldn't take too much effort to commit them to memory.

 

[supercoolmancool]

For those that have not read any of my posts, I am a relative newcomer to counting. I have counted in casinos for approx. 6 months, starting w/ bs, progressing to KO rookie, and now KO preferred, using half the indices suggested in book. I had my best session to date three nights ago, winning 68 units in under 30 min. Tonight, I lost 106 units in two sessions at two different casinos. The feeling I had on that lonely three hr drive home reminded me of seeing my dad gamble my childhhod away. He would come home after 2-3 day binge, with no cheque or money, leaving mom to fend for five kids. I swore I would never do that to my wife and kids, and can honestly say after 23 yrs of marriage, I have not. Not looking for sympathy here, rather, any input from more experienced players. Honestly, if you choose to reply, has this ever gotten in theway of family/marriage ? My wife is tremendously supportive(she was their when I won a few times) and I am not a 'emotional' type of gambler. I fully understand sd, as tonight I should have walked away a winner with the high count I had. But, I sit here sick to my stomach, and I'm not so sure I want to experience this again. I must be honest that I recently sold a business to get out of debt, and am basically starting over. Own a house and such, but $$ is tight, and am playing on a limited br. So, should I decide to move on to train modelling or crosswords, I would like to thank all who have replied to my silly posts before. Seems like a real brotherhood here. Best of luck everyone.

sincerely
the golfnut

"Never Surrender, Never give up" - Space Quest

If you quit now you will just be another statistic. Card counters win in the long run. The short run is meaningless. Just pretend it didn't happen as long as you have like 300 units left. Really you are only 38 units down. That is not bad. As Pierre said, "prepare for 480." You must truely prepare yourself if you want to reach the long run.

 

[ScottH]

"Never Surrender, Never give up" - Space Quest

Never give up, Never surrender!"

If you quit now you will just be another statistic. Card counters win in the long run. The short run is meaningless. Just pretend it didn't happen as long as you have like 300 units left. Really you are only 38 units down. That is not bad. As Pierre said, "prepare for 480." You must truely prepare yourself if you want to reach the long run.

It takes a really, REALLY long time to reach the long run. Not everyone has what it takes to get there. That's why card counting is definitely not for everyone.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Let me tell you something man, swings like that are a little higher than average but only a little. In reality they are nothing compared to what can happen and still be within a standard deviation of variance.

My first real bad losing session I walked away from the table with chest pains. Thank God it was just stress. Now these things don't bother me any more, but I had the same feelings you did. You see yourself as a sick person, deceived, foolish, a compulsive gambler perhaps.

Regarding that last thing- I wasn't playing with you so only you know if you are that. Some players will "steam"- bet irrationally out of desperation to try to make up losses. Others will fail to raise their bet out of fear. Both will guarantee losing, and nobody can help you if you are doing that. Hopefully you are not doing that, and never will.

Now regarding your wife... I'm going to say a bad thing here. :devil: There are few people who are capable of fully appreciating the math of variance and win rate- even some people who consider themselves advantage players. Chances are your wife isn't one of them, and trying to explain it you might just dig yourself deeper into a hole. So I wouldn't tell her. You can explain win rate to her, keep your bankroll segregated (I know, easier said than done) and don't share the pain of negative flux with her. My girlfriend gets to enjoy my comps, the casino entertainment, the stuff I buy with my winnings and she even launders my ratholed chips for me, but the negative flux is a cross I bear alone. Not that I lie about losing sessions, I just don't volunteer info because there's no way I can properly explain to the unskilled that it's not really a loss.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Never give up, Never surrender!"

You're both wrong. Never give up, surrender when the count calls for it, don't forget to use risk-averse indices and see if the dealer will let you get away with surrendering a split hand!

 

[ScottH]

Now regarding your wife... I'm going to say a bad thing here. :devil: There are few people who are capable of fully appreciating the math of variance and win rate- even some people who consider themselves advantage players. Chances are your wife isn't one of them, and trying to explain it you might just dig yourself deeper into a hole. So I wouldn't tell her. You can explain win rate to her, keep your bankroll segregated (I know, easier said than done) and don't share the pain of negative flux with her. My girlfriend gets to enjoy my comps, the casino entertainment, the stuff I buy with my winnings and she even launders my ratholed chips for me, but the negative flux is a cross I bear alone. Not that I lie about losing sessions, I just don't volunteer info because there's no way I can properly explain to the unskilled that it's not really a loss.

I see a problem with this. If you keep telling your wife about your wins and not your losses, she is going to think your much farther ahead than you really are! So I say you either don't discuss wins/losses at all, or tell her about them both. I recommend telling her, however.

 

[dacium]

Sometimes you just get such terrible terrible luck it seems.

I only started blackjack recently. The first time i played I just played basic stategy (happy to loose the meger few dollars an hour on average). I won about 40 units.

Then I was at a 6 deck game on friday night, happily counting away while idiots kept winning on the perfect pair side bets. Anyway the count got so high it went to +15 with about 1.5 decks left at one point and I was getting my money out on the table. I kept get 69, 96, T3, T6 while everyone else was getting their TT twenties. I think I won 1 hand out of about the fourteen where i was betting 10x. It gave me a sick feeling in my gut but I knew it was just the luck you sometimes get. Next shoe I came back in at +2 and started winning tonnes of doubles. About 2 hours later I was able to walk away 0.5 units up. I'm glad I didn't leave and had the balls to pull out my 'reserves'.

Just goes to show just because you increase the edge from -0.5% to 1% or 2% doesn't mean a massive string of loosing hands won't occur.

 

[Gregory]

It seems like you have some issues with your father's binge gambling that is causing you problems now. A negative 38 unit swing should be minimal ... if it isn't, then you are overbetting your bank roll.
But yeah, I also have had those sessions from hell and just sat there stunned as the dealer banged out crap like six card 21's to stomp my max bet pair of faces. But on the flip side I have had shoes where I enjoyed an increase of 100 units or more. Shoes where my stiffs wouldn't dare to bust and where the double downs always caught me a ten.
There can be a lot of swing in blackjack, in both units and in our moods as a result. I think most of the really successful players have taught themselves to not let a single session determine how they approach the game.
Perhaps going to a smaller unit size (if it's possible) would cause you less anxiety if you had a losing session.
Becoming confident in your count and your skill at the game will remove nine tenths of the wobble from that limb you feel like your on.

 

[mgcasinos]

Why do you still play when you lost your session?

It's a mistake of strategy.

BTW,gamble is gamble,life is life.

 

[zengrifter]

Why do you still play when you lost your session?
It's a mistake of strategy.
BTW,gamble is gamble,life is life.

MGC, don't come around here and dispense your bullsh*t like you know something. Go promote your website somewhere else. Cape'ce? zg

 

[Mikeaber]

Golfnut <<Honestly, if you choose to reply, has this ever gotten in theway of family/marriage ? My wife is tremendously supportive(she was their when I won a few times) and I am not a 'emotional' type of gambler. I fully understand sd,>>

I've only had one situation that came close to that GN. Happened before I started AP a few years ago. In fact, it was one of the episodes that encouraged me to test the waters of Counting. My wife is just as far down the street with gambling as I am...maybe more so but she had gotten to the point at which she depended on my Basic Strategy play NOT to lose much on our trips. I would either break even, lose a little or win a little. But this particular trip, hydrocodone plus some stiff Scotch and Waters influenced me to make a couple of stupid wagers right at the end of the trip and ended up down about twice what my trip's budget allowed. Okay, she was "hurt", "Pissed" and otherwise discontent with my briliance. We had a long talk about it and as a result, I decided I needed to change in some way the tactics I was using in playing.

Before I started counting but after I had decided to take it up, I had another long talk and explained how it worked. How the advantage gained isn't huge and that there would be fluxuations during sessions. We agreed on a BR to start with knowing that it might disappear rather quickly if it didn't work out. Both her BR and my BR are limited by what we can afford to lose as a family. By that, I simply mean that while we don't expect to lose it, if we do, while it will be heartwrenching, it will not be disasterous.

I take a good book and a computer to the casino when we're going to be there over night just in case the worse happens, and thankfully, it hasn't happened YET. But what I'm trying to say is that both of us know the risks and gamble on our preset allocations and never go beyond them. However, there have been times here recently when I've shelled out chips to my wife after she's demolished her allowance <LOL>

And as Auto Monk said, she has laundered chips that I've ratholed! Sometimes, I even get some of the money she's cleaned! Anyway, that's the way we deal with it.

 

[golfnut101]

thnx everyone who has replied

First off, ZG is correct that I should know all of the indices. I have coached hoops for years, and we always talk about preparation. I didnt follow my own advice. More practice, less play. Monkey, my largest bet was 7 units on a +7 count, so I am still battling the 'fear' thing; it is definitelty not 'steaming'. It was just one of those shoes...19, dealer draw 3 card 20; snapper, dealer snapper; 20, dealer 3 card 21. 2 players at table inc/self. Good pen. Guy beside me looked stunned at the hands dealer was pulling to beat me. But, from a technical standpoint, I laid down the larger bets in correlation to count. I know ZG is going to tell me my spread wasnt enough.Gregory, excellent comment when you said "becoming confident in your count and your skill in the game will remove nine tenths of the wobble from that limb you feel like your on." This goes back to the preparation thing. Mikeaber, I cant lie that I feel like it does get in the way cause of the time way from home. Its not like I live in the casinos cause their is only a few I can go to, but, maybe because of the loss their is a greater sense of guilt. I was playing$10 units 2nd session, and really should have played $5. But, its not like I bet the farm or anything. Maybe it is simply growing pains. Should I choose to go on, I know what must be done...MORE PRACTICE !

Hey everyone, thanks again so much for all the feedback. This is a great option to have. I hope someday I can give something back.

 

[Mikeaber]

Maybe it is simply growing pains. Should I choose to go on, I know what must be done...MORE PRACTICE !

It is <growing pains>. The biological end product often hits the oscillating device. We are only playing at best at an overall advantage of 2% and that only some of the time. Swings in both directions have to be expected and planned for....hence the ROR charts indicating a BR that I don't have...yet. Apparently, neither do you. Unlike those who have already decided to "go all the way", you and I have to make those decisions and alter our game plan virtually each time we enter into the foray. Oh would that I had a 5000 unit bankroll!

 

[TENNBEAR]

The huge response to this thread is evident that a lot of players out there can relate to those of us who has suffered a big loss. The key is to understand that losing is a part of the game and regardless of our ability we all suffer losing streaks. The key to being an AP is you should have the discipline to recover, and minimize the damage. As far as money goes, I only gamble with disposable income, If it takes three months to recoupe my bankroll after a big loss then I have to wait three months before I return to the casino, I am certain that their are others who can relate to that. As far as my wife, she complains that when she goes to the casino with me, that I spend all my time at the blackjack tables "Imagine That", She chooses to stay home most times.

 

[SystemsTrader]

Hey Golfnut after reading your post I can't help but think, this is "Excellent News". This tells me that you are an emotional human being and this can be used to your advantage. There are two dangerous emotions we must deal with when playing blackjack and they are fear and greed.

As a trader, I could relate horror stories to you about how I let these two emotions get the best of me and how they can send you on a roller coaster ride of highs and lows. If there is one important thing I have learned from trading it is this:
"Happiness will not come from making money but from executing your system flawlessly!"
This will help you with your emotions whether you win or lose at the casino. So now you must do like your basketball team and "Be prepared".

First stop going to the casino. If you don't have software already, get some and start practising and set up your software with your local casino rules. I would suggest practising at least an hour a day, and record your daily details of wins, losses, amount won or lost, how often key and pivot points are hit, win streaks, losing streaks and anything else you might think is important like how often your count is correct. I know this may seem like a lot of work but after about a month or so you will be able to see all kinds of amazing patterns of play and different streaks which occur. This will greatly remove a lot of your fears because you will get a good idea of the different highs and lows of what to expect in a casino. And all this practising will have you executing basic strategy and your full counting indexes without having to think about it.

The next important thing to reduce fear is to have a sufficient bankroll. I've seen so many traders implode because their lack of funds did not allow them to continue through a losing streak, myself included. I know what its like to lose your whole account. Its devastating. A lack of funds will cause you to take stupid chances. So how much should you have? Well it really depends on the amount of risk you are comfortable with but I would suggest for all new counters to have at least a 1000 unit account. I know this may sound a lot to most new players but its helps as you make your way through the novice learning curve which has many tough lessons.

Sorry if this sounds really preachy but its just that I've been there so I know how you feel. At least in blackjack you don't have to worry about your stop loss being blown passed and chassing after a sinking market. Remember no one who ever made it big at anything didn't have a few failures on the way. They just learned from them and used them to their advantage. Should you continue on, just to let you know you will experience more of those 100 unit losses in the future so get used to it!

 

[zengrifter]

If you don't have software already, get some and start practising and set up your software with your local casino rules. I would suggest practising at least an hour a day,

The next important thing to reduce fear is to have a sufficient bankroll.

Addressing both suggestions - get both practice and risk-mgmt software. Perhaps QFIT-CV can do both, but I'm not familiar enough with it. I use NeUltra for practice and BJRisk for the other. zg