Single Deck (Barona)

[WestCoast21]

I just don't want to get my ass kicked by a tribe and have them take my money. If they are under their own laws, then why can't they just take your chips and say you were cheating? Maybe they can!?!

 

[JSTAT]

I've been barred from a few places in Las Vegas, but I've always eventually returned to play more. I've never been barred from anywhere that I didn't go back to after some time had passed. The barrings are embarrassing, but sort of funny and I enjoy them to a certain extent (only if I'm winning).

However, Barona seems to be a little different. It's a smaller, more intimate place, and I think it would really stand out if I were barred there. They have a good reputation though and I doubt they would make a big deal out of it. After all, they have the Blackjack Hall of Fame there to glorify legendary card counters!

The thing I don't understand is how an Indian casino can do anything they want with no legal consequences? Seems crazy to me.

The inductees of the Blackjack Hall of Fame at Barona accepted a lifetime barring at 21 there as a badge of honor. James Grosjean, Arnold Snyder, Stanford Wong, and other legends have self-barred themselves at Barona, so you are in elite company if you get the tap on the shoulder.

 

[johndoe]

Like I said, Flash, and it seems you agree by example, State Police does not have jurisdiction; it's a federal matter. It would be like calling the CT state police to go arrest someone in RI. Doesn't work. In your example it was only (and correctly) the state police that was denied entry.

As for the taxes, most cigarette taxes are state taxes; the indians pay federal tax like everyone else, and also complain about federal tax hikes:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/140688.php (Archive copy)

As for your friend, it's a horrible thing that happened, but I'm not so sure I believe there was no recourse. There are Federal assault laws, and reservations are under federal jurisdiction.

Of course, whether someone has the means / $ to sue in federal court is another matter entirely.

I would be curious to read exactly what the various State/Indian treaties say.

More details:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_sovereignty

 

[FLASH1296]

They can but never will - because the bad publicity would drive away business.

 

[FLASH1296]

johndoe,

Wikipedia is not authoritative, and is not considered admissible in court rooms.

I lived with a native American woman for some years and I have spent a goodly amount of time in and around a rez'

I am concluding that you are unfamiliar with the useful pragmatic concept of "Facts on The Ground."

 

[1357111317]

The inductees of the Blackjack Hall of Fame at Barona accepted a lifetime barring at 21 there as a badge of honor. James Grosjean, Arnold Snyder, Stanford Wong, and other legends have self-barred themselves at Barona, so you are in elite company if you get the tap on the shoulder.

You are in elite company if you get the tap on the shoulder?

I have been counting for less than a year and I am pretty sure I could get the tap on the shoulder at the barona single deck game within a couple hours. Does this mean I am among the elite in the blackjack world?

Not a chance. Just because you either played too long or spread too much doesnt mean you are "elite".

 

[creeping panther]

Flash

There are always a handful of uninformed people who imagine that "Federal Laws" apply and can be enforced on a "sovereign" nation.

"Facts On The Ground", as they are known, quickly dispatch such naive notions.

I wish that I had not lost the photos that i took of the signs at the border of the Akwesasne Mohawk Reservation, in New York State, straddling the U S Canadian border. They inform the F.B.I., the I.R.S., Federal Marshals, military, etc. that they are NOT permitted on the rez'

Back in the mid 1980's, the Governor decided to close down the "illegal" Indian casinos that operated there. The State Police Troopers were met with roadblocks and a good deal of gunfire. Some were wounded. The Attorney General advised the governor, Nelson Rockefeller, that the State Police had NO jurisdiction there unless they received an invitation. The State Police were ordered to retreat. They never returned. They still "illegally" sell cigarettes that are completely tax-free, and as such, are absurdly cheap. Many people risk selling them in their own communities for triple the price or more. It is an open secret that drug smuggling and human smuggling are major industries on this reservation as the Canadian and American customs agents, etc. cannot stop those who simply walk across the border via the reservation. A movie about this garnered two (s) Oscar nominations in 2008. It was called "Frozen River" See:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0978759/

Incidentally, I had an acquaintance who was a businessman in Hartford Connecticut. He was very severely beaten at Foxwoods and was in I.C.U. for two weeks with internal injuries and numerous fractures. He told me how shocking it was when his brother, who was "admitted at the bar" in Connecticut, had to tell him that he had NO recourse whatsoever.

Flash,

Now that you have made this claim, in essence slandering the tribe, why not give all the facts? ALL the facts.

CP

 

[zengrifter]

johndoe,

Wikipedia is not authoritative

Maybe not authorative, but just as reliable as Britannica --

Wikipedia, Britannica: A Toss-Up
Study: Wikipedia as accurate as Britannica
Wikipedia and Britannica (Archive copy)​

 

[johndoe]

Wikipedia

Well, Flash, I can certainly agree that wikipedia is not the most authoritative source in the world, but the article I linked to is well referenced and seems complete. I certainly would give it more credence than what your ex girlfriend says!

 

[blackjackstudent]

Flash,

So is it true that at Indian sovereign casinos, they can detain you indefinitely if they perceive you to be an advantage player. So are Indian tribes in Indian land above the law (like if a tribe sanction violence act towards another tribe member, the state police wont have any say in this matter and the offender wont be prosecuted in a court of law?)

Was the businessman at Hartford an advantage player in the first place>

 

[irobinson]

There are always a handful of uninformed people who imagine that "Federal Laws" apply and can be enforced on a "sovereign" nation.

"Facts On The Ground", as they are known, quickly dispatch such naive notions.

I wish that I had not lost the photos that i took of the signs at the border of the Akwesasne Mohawk Reservation, in New York State, straddling the U S Canadian border. They inform the F.B.I., the I.R.S., Federal Marshals, military, etc. that they are NOT permitted on the rez'

Back in the mid 1980's, the Governor decided to close down the "illegal" Indian casinos that operated there. The State Police Troopers were met with roadblocks and a good deal of gunfire. Some were wounded. The Attorney General advised the governor, Nelson Rockefeller, that the State Police had NO jurisdiction there unless they received an invitation. The State Police were ordered to retreat. They never returned. They still "illegally" sell cigarettes that are completely tax-free, and as such, are absurdly cheap. Many people risk selling them in their own communities for triple the price or more. It is an open secret that drug smuggling and human smuggling are major industries on this reservation as the Canadian and American customs agents, etc. cannot stop those who simply walk across the border via the reservation. A movie about this garnered two (s) Oscar nominations in 2008. It was called "Frozen River" See:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0978759/

Incidentally, I had an acquaintance who was a businessman in Hartford Connecticut. He was very severely beaten at Foxwoods and was in I.C.U. for two weeks with internal injuries and numerous fractures. He told me how shocking it was when his brother, who was "admitted at the bar" in Connecticut, had to tell him that he had NO recourse whatsoever.

The cops may not have jurisdiction but murder is murder and the cops will shoot back, sovereign land or not. Ask the Riverside County Sheriff.

Also, those casinos do have some federal oversight. Too much funny business on the part of a tribe and the feds will start to take a look.

 

[FLASH1296]

"Facts on the Ground"{

"Also, those casinos do have some federal oversight. Too much funny business on the part of a tribe and the feds will start to take a look."

The oversight is that of a typical non-enforced regulation.

A couple of years ago, it was revealed that the Seminole tribal "elders" have, for years, siphoned off large chunks of casino funds - using the cash primarily for real estate additions, expensive sports cars, etc.

Reminds one of the Mob practice of "skimming" revenues in Las Vegas.

In any case, when informed that funds were being 'disappeared' - the tribe was told that that was not appropriate. No action was ever taken.

 

[irobinson]

"Also, those casinos do have some federal oversight. Too much funny business on the part of a tribe and the feds will start to take a look."

The oversight is that of a typical non-enforced regulation.

A couple of years ago, it was revealed that the Seminole tribal "elders" have, for years, siphoned off large chunks of casino funds - using the cash primarily for real estate additions, expensive sports cars, etc.

Reminds one of the Mob practice of "skimming" revenues in Las Vegas.

In any case, when informed that funds were being 'disappeared' - the tribe was told that that was not appropriate. No action was ever taken.

No one cares what they spend the money on (unless it is illegal - some members of the San Manuel tribe in CA got in trouble for allegedly sending money to Mexican organized crime and for various drug offenses).

I think if enough phone calls came through about an Indian casino cheating players and treating them less than nicely they may do something eventually.

 

[FLASH1296]

you said:

"No one cares what they spend the money on"

Obviously, you missed the point.

Those were LARGE sums of money that were supposed to go into a fund, from which the Seminole tribal members get their yearly income of 6 figures per person.

This was outright THEFT.

 

[ricardo]

Being booted out

I've played this single deck game a handful of times and I think I'm on the verge of being booted every time.

Anyone had the experience being booted out? After how much winning you left to avoid booting ?

 

[Sucker]

just remember to lay down some cover, like betting 2 units off the top, and do NOT be greedy.

This statement by Flash is one of the more important pieces of advice that's been posted on this site, and it's one that's quite often ignored by many otherwise smart people.

If I were interested in that Barona game with the 0.1% house edge, I would bet FIVE units off the top, about 1/3 to 1/4 of the time. For a $500 bet, this would cost me exactly 50 cents each time I did it, or something like 3-4 bucks an hour. That $3-$4 per hour would buy me the ability to run completely rampant over this game, with almost NO impunity; at least until I finally won enough money over time to make the casino cry uncle. I have several counter friends who've employed this tactic for years, and they almost NEVER get heat.

 

[ricardo]

I was there a couple of times, always saw a few female Asian, some of them even kept a private table, they were almost there daily. From the way they were playing, apparently they were not counter. I m sure Barona makes huge profits from these fat cats. Barona could lost a some to the counters, but in balance, Barona is still ahead of the game. That may be why hardly any counters are actually being boot out of the game.

 

[WestCoast21]

Just played some more at Barona recently. Won several thousand in a couple of hours. Betting heavy right off the top seems to be buying me time, but how long will it take for them to see I win just about every time I play?

One crazy thing I always notice when I'm there, the two single deck games are almost always empty or have just one other player. I can't understand why these tables aren't packed!

 

[ricardo]

Just played some more at Barona recently. Won several thousand in a couple of hours. Betting heavy right off the top seems to be buying me time, but how long will it take for them to see I win just about every time I play?

One crazy thing I always notice when I'm there, the two single deck games are almost always empty or have just one other player. I can't understand why these tables aren't packed!

Could I see you play?