Some confusion on "soft" hands...

[Fun_at_21]

interesting how you allude to not feeling "right" about the counting stuff. i've experienced what may be a similar sort of sentiment about playing the game as well. it's not that i feel that card counting is an unfair or even a necessarily deceptive practice, it's more to do for me with a feeling of enjoying the game as a sport, i suppose. like maybe just me, but when i was counting cards orthodox for about two years, i noticed that just about everyone around me was having fun, except me, lol.

Yeah, that's exactly what I wouldn't want blackjack to be, or what I feel it is about to begin with. I, too, don't personally care if others count or not. That is, it isn't none of my business. I just simply enjoy the game and have fun at it. I just personally don't feel "right" about counting for myself. I'm sure others could either agree or consider me stupid but it's just how I feel. Sure, I wish I could win every hand (in theory) but I don't play for the allure of consistent or expected money (maybe just the allure of sporadic ocasssional money) But who doesn't? Again, that's why it's supposed to be called "gambling" Why else would it be fun? But this is just my personal opinion (views).

but i found that for me there was a bit more to it than the fun aspect, or the sport aspect, it also had to do with the question of whether or not counting cards was gambling or not. i came to the conclusion that because there always is a risk of ruin involved that card counting was a form of gambling, hence there really wasn't any reason i shouldn't be able to have just as much fun as the rest of the gamblers, lol.

Yeah, I can understand that. That's part of why I don't "believe" in counting myself is simply that it would no longer be "gambling" to me. Not that I'm a "gambler". Blackjack is the only casino game I play and, as stated, I don't play with huge money or expectation of recieving it although I do enjoy the casual fun and atmosphere of playing at places like the Palms, Paris, Mandalay Bay etc whenever I get a chance to visit Vegas (which is occassionally but not all the time). Even at these places, I often just enjoy the comps they provide, free room discounts and just the relaxation of dining out, having fun with friends or a special someone. I'm actually a very laid-back type and just like to relax at the places. To me, blackjack now and then is just part of the "relaxation". It's all just fun. I don't live at the tables or anything. But I do enjoy the "theory" of the game and the hands etc...

I can understand your risk of ruin point, even for counters. It just depends on one's views and how they want to define it. I probably would view it more as, "is it gambling if you can definitively say you have a long term advanatge?" That's why I'd still say that counting isn't "gambling" but I realize these things aren't universally right or wrong. It's just an opinion.

hmm, that is interesting. i'll have to check that out in Theory of Blackjack.
lol, as lost as i was trying to read that book i guess i missed that.:laugh:

I definitely can understand that! It is one of those blackjack books that I really enjoy yet admit I don't necessarily understand. But that's probably more to do with my less than stellar math mind (although I know lots of people have difficulty fully grasping some of the math in that book...). It is an interesting one though. I usually end up just flipping around in it and getting absorbed into a page or two. I follow it in the "theory" parts but, ironically, when the explanation and math parts come in to show what is going on, THEN I end up getting lost! lol. Oh well, like I said, I still have learned some things from it. The "idea" of the book is definitely a good one, seeing I'm largely a lover of the probabilities of the hands, likliehood of this and that etc. I just wish the actual "proof" of blackjack theory wasnt so hard and complex to verify and understand. I end up just having to "take the word" of what math people and computer simulations show...

there you go again with that innocent plays, sort of stuff. interesting.
maybe you, like me just need to trick your self into believing your gambling, then you won't have to worry about it, lol.

That could be Although I don't think I'll have to talk to myself too hard. I do know I'm "gambling". At least until I do something that truly is un-innocent and somehow gain a long term advantage (which I'm actually intentionally trying to avoid) then I can't see any other way to consider it...

 

[sagefr0g]

No I have not, but basically, it has to do with the make up of players and dealers hands and the values of the cards, just as counting does. So just like when counting the value of each individual cards seen, will be worth less with a six deck game. At least thats my thinking.

that's my thinking for the main. however i don't know how factual that is.
i mean it makes sense. i'd just like to see what a sim would show for a six deck game for more than the 5 million rounds than Dubey did for single deck, lol.

one thing i've noticed about my practice rounds (not enough rounds to be significant i know, lol) is how this situational betting may not lead to as many blackjacks as counting with hi/lo and it seems as if more ordinary wins play a part as far as helping the player win money. that could just be a misleading phenomenon, like a mirage, lol, that i think i notice. but anyway here is a stat table from cvbj that illustrates the mirage, below.:whip:
like normally i'd be way behind on the normal hands comparably speaking.
but anyway that's only for 1,887 hands or so.

then another image below shows how my betting correlated with the true count. notice the thirty dollar avg bet at tc=-7, lmao. good thing that was only seven hands, lol. actually won two of them, lol.
what ever i have to admit, that over the play for those images i didn't play it purely Dubey's way but some of my own voodoo fuzzy stuff as well.

but anyway, what ever. just thinking about it, yeah there does seem to be a correlation between Dubey's stuff and counting cards, however it has the player betting in a different way, where Dubey's stuff has you concentrating your bets on the very next round after a situation and counting may have you concentrating your bets as long as the true count is high enough sort of thing, that could be a series of rounds or so.

just me maybe, but as far as this situational betting stuff, one has to wonder if other situational aspects for getting an advantage exist as well. such as situations that occur over a series of rounds, ect. :whip:

 

[sagefr0g]

....
That could be Although I don't think I'll have to talk to myself too hard. I do know I'm "gambling". At least until I do something that truly is un-innocent and somehow gain a long term advantage (which I'm actually intentionally trying to avoid) then I can't see any other way to consider it...

ok, lol, now you've got me curious. just i'm wondering how your using the term innocent.:whip:
but please if you care to answer, don't answer here but in the link below:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=141432&postcount=304

 

[Fun_at_21]

ok, lol, now you've got me curious. just i'm wondering how your using the term innocent.:whip:
but please if you care to answer, don't answer here but in the link below:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=141432&postcount=304

Based on that list, probably #4 most closely resembles what it means to me (as a measly basic strategy player), if forced to pick one in those terms...

 

[sagefr0g]

Based on that list, probably #4 most closely resembles what it means to me (as a measly basic strategy player), if forced to pick one in those terms...

ok, i can kind of relate to that. like i can remember as a counter i played on the Sea Escape out of Ft. Lauderdale, Fla. for about two years.
i really enjoyed it greatly (although it was a bit stressful for me trying to keep that darned running count), the staff and all were really great. it was like at times you could tell the outfit wasn't doing all that well.
i really did have some reservations about winning the money that i did manage to win from them in light of knowing how shaky their business prospects were.
i think they had been in business for about thirty years or so.
sadly they went belly up when Hard Rock in Hollywood, Fla. started dealing table games.
it wasn't really an question of ethics for me or morality, just i really did start feeling sorry for them.

 

[Fun_at_21]

ok, i can kind of relate to that. like i can remember as a counter i played on the Sea Escape out of Ft. Lauderdale, Fla. for about two years.
i really enjoyed it greatly (although it was a bit stressful for me trying to keep that darned running count), the staff and all were really great. it was like at times you could tell the outfit wasn't doing all that well.
i really did have some reservations about winning the money that i did manage to win from them in light of knowing how shaky their business prospects were.
i think they had been in business for about thirty years or so.
sadly they went belly up when Hard Rock in Hollywood, Fla. started dealing table games.
it wasn't really an question of ethics for me or morality, just i really did start feeling sorry for them.

I suppose everyone just has to decide for themselves what's fun to them or "moral". In my case, any reservations I have to counting are not really due to the fact that I might feel sorry for any casino but more just a simple right or wrong issue (at least relative to my personal definition of it in terms of how I enjoy the game and how I believe it was "meant" to be played). After all, I have a slight feeling the casinos make a far bigger advantage off of us then we do on them (counting or not). But I guess I feel that's the way it should be. Again, that's why it's called "gambling". To me that's what makes it fun (even though I don't even play an excessive amount anyway) . Still, when I do go, no one is making me go. I certainly have the right not to go to a casino and play if I feel it's "unfair" for the house to hold a very slight to modest edge over poor me (and even that is only fully guaranteed in the long run...) Likewise, if I don't think it's fair, it doesnt mean I need to "change" the game and simply put the rules in MY favor simply because I dont like it. Although I do admit that the wallet certainly wouldn't object to such ideas. Who could blame it! But like all good things in life, the wallet alone (believe it or not) doesn't always serve as the main focal point of things. Perhaps shocking but true.. At least in my humble opinion...

But it also might to help to understand that my initial love of blackjack (and really card playing in a general sense) comes from more old-fashioned, good-natured, homely roots to begin with. Not to bore anyone with the sounds of a hallmark commercial, but my early knowledge and experience with "card games" largely came from watching grandparents and family playing pinochle for pure fun at holidays, weekend dinners, etc. So my love and early learning/reading of blackjack has this classic yet fun-loving "spirit" to it just the same. To me blackjack is "special" because it's the kind of game where even though the "house" has a built in edge it is still largely a fair stand-off. It's the kind of game well suited to, yes, endless wagering but also is the kind of game a husband and wife can casually play by pulling out a 52 card deck on a plane ride or even within the comfort of their living room on a cold snowy winter's evening. To me this is the intended "spirit" and fun of the game (aside from the ensuing allure of the technical curiosities of hand probabilities, etc). And I simply take this "spirit" of this great game with me when I play it for "real" at a casino. Why shouldn't I? I definitely don't try to "change" it anyway just because "real money" can be gained or loss when playing it at a casino.

That doesn't mean someone else isnt free to make thier own definition of what the "spirit" or fun of the game is to them. But the more exciting and "serious" temptation of "card counting" and the more "hardcore" aspects that some like, as reflected (for better or worse) by films like "21" is not exactly MY "spirit" of the game. That's not to say those who do like this "style" of the game aren't good at it, and likely highly skilled in many cases. I couldn't begin to acquire some of the mental skill that counters must have but then again I wouldn't want the taxing weight of it or a possible loss of the "casual" spirit and natural (pun intended) fun of the game. However, none of this means that I'm foolish enough to think I have any right to universally say what's "good or bad" for a mere card game but just simply saying I know what's right and wrong for me in terms of loving the game...

 

[sagefr0g]

I suppose everyone just has to decide for themselves what's fun to them or "moral". In my case, any reservations I have to counting are not really due to the fact that I might feel sorry for any casino but more just a simple right or wrong issue (at least relative to my personal definition of it in terms of how I enjoy the game and how I believe it was "meant" to be played). After all, I have a slight feeling the casinos make a far bigger advantage off of us then we do on them (counting or not). But I guess I feel that's the way it should be. Again, that's why it's called "gambling". To me that's what makes it fun (even though I don't even play an excessive amount anyway) . Still, when I do go, no one is making me go. I certainly have the right not to go to a casino and play if I feel it's "unfair" for the house to hold a very slight to modest edge over poor me (and even that is only fully guaranteed in the long run...) Likewise, if I don't think it's fair, it doesnt mean I need to "change" the game and simply put the rules in MY favor simply because I dont like it. Although I do admit that the wallet certainly wouldn't object to such ideas. Who could blame it! But like all good things in life, the wallet alone (believe it or not) doesn't always serve as the main focal point of things. Perhaps shocking but true.. At least in my humble opinion...

But it also might to help to understand that my initial love of blackjack (and really card playing in a general sense) comes from more old-fashioned, good-natured, homely roots to begin with. Not to bore anyone with the sounds of a hallmark commercial, but my early knowledge and experience with "card games" largely came from watching grandparents and family playing pinochle for pure fun at holidays, weekend dinners, etc. So my love and early learning/reading of blackjack has this classic yet fun-loving "spirit" to it just the same. To me blackjack is "special" because it's the kind of game where even though the "house" has a built in edge it is still largely a fair stand-off. It's the kind of game well suited to, yes, endless wagering but also is the kind of game a husband and wife can casually play by pulling out a 52 card deck on a plane ride or even within the comfort of their living room on a cold snowy winter's evening. To me this is the intended "spirit" and fun of the game (aside from the ensuing allure of the technical curiosities of hand probabilities, etc). And I simply take this "spirit" of this great game with me when I play it for "real" at a casino. Why shouldn't I? I definitely don't try to "change" it anyway just because "real money" can be gained or loss when playing it at a casino.

That doesn't mean someone else isnt free to make thier own definition of what the "spirit" or fun of the game is to them. But the more exciting and "serious" temptation of "card counting" and the more "hardcore" aspects that some like, as reflected (for better or worse) by films like "21" is not exactly MY "spirit" of the game. That's not to say those who do like this "style" of the game aren't good at it, and likely highly skilled in many cases. I couldn't begin to acquire some of the mental skill that counters must have but then again I wouldn't want the taxing weight of it or a possible loss of the "casual" spirit and natural (pun intended) fun of the game. However, none of this means that I'm foolish enough to think I have any right to universally say what's "good or bad" for a mere card game but just simply saying I know what's right and wrong for me in terms of loving the game...

oh, ok, i understand now.
well, me i just think from your original post calling soft cards, soft cards in general is ok, i just would dispense with the mental terminology of soft 13, soft 14, ...., lol.
then, my guess, perhaps with a little luck behind you, you could apply Dubey's stuff in the same spirit that you apply basic strategy and watching the cards as you stated, and perhaps give your wallet a bit better chance than the 100% ROR that playing basic strategy alone promises.
well maybe that's an over statement, maybe you'd still be at 100% ROR, i don't really know, but almost for certain if you just flat bet always then you have 100% ROR, just i believe raising your bets when the playing field is leveled a bit might either slow the progress towards 100% ROR or bring you closer to even, so to speak.
it's certainly not a very strenuous way to play, just me maybe but i find it rather 'sporting', lol.

 

[Fun_at_21]

oh, ok, i understand now.
well, me i just think from your original post calling soft cards, soft cards in general is ok, i just would dispense with the mental terminology of soft 13, soft 14, ...., lol.
then, my guess, perhaps with a little luck behind you, you could apply Dubey's stuff in the same spirit that you apply basic strategy and watching the cards as you stated, and perhaps give your wallet a bit better chance than the 100% ROR that playing basic strategy alone promises.
well maybe that's an over statement, maybe you'd still be at 100% ROR, i don't really know, but almost for certain if you just flat bet always then you have 100% ROR, just i believe raising your bets when the playing field is leveled a bit might either slow the progress towards 100% ROR or bring you closer to even, so to speak.
it's certainly not a very strenuous way to play, just me maybe but i find it rather 'sporting', lol.

Yeah, anything not strenuous is good! At least I think so. I definitely have some work to do with getting the soft hands calculated in my head more quickly during real-time play. That's the main issue I have with them. When I stop and can ponder a hand, it makes sense but I need to get where I'm not "pondering" them so much at the tables themselves. But I think it will come along. It was mostly the "when to stop hitting 13-18 issue" that was confusing me because I thought I was seeing them hit in some cases and stood on in others and it seemed that the situations were the same when both was being done. I realize now that I need to keep the Ace valued as a 1 in the back of my head as that will determine if I should keep hitting it without the chance of busting...

Unfortunately, depending on one's view, I do typically flat bet. Then again, since I do just try to play basic strategy as well as I can I've always been led to believe that is the most "optimum" way. That is, the bad (and good unfortunately) swings will be less wild if flat-betting. Having said that, I don't necessarily constantly or precisely flat-bet. I'd say that I "roughly" flat-bet. Meaning I'll pick a certain bet level and pretty much always stay within a few dollars of it. So I don't rigidly flat-bet but I pretty much do.

I also have, unknowingly, been doing some of the "awareness" plays that I see Dubey had long ago mapped out to enhance my basic strategy without adding any "work" to it. But, as mentioned, even if I raise my bets I kinda do it modestly or over the course of a few hands. I don't bet near enough a high spread to actually make any of those prior hand awareness plays truly worthwhile but, nonetheless, I still have fun...

 

[CasualPlayer]

Fun,

From what I read, you'll be counting within a year. I'm a frequent lurker and very occasional poster here. You are in exactly the place I was 10 years ago before I started counting.

I was happy to play BS and flat bet, and enjoy the game and know that with variance in play, I was nearly as likely as the house to walk away a winner for any one session.

I love the game and I could literally play all day and be happy as a clam. I too thought that counting was probably too much work and I felt the element of "risk" in being a counter would lessen my enjoyment of the game.

The more I learned about the game through discussions like this one the more curious I became.

I finally bought the KO book and read through it. Here's what I found. Counting is really no harder than learning perfect BS. It's very easy to practice (QFIT's stuff and other software are great for this). It has made the game much more exciting for me, as I now have the knowledge of when and how to put more money on the line effectively. Depending on what your goals are, you can improve your game without taking on too much of the "risk" of the more hardcore players.

Like I said, I only get to play a few times a year. I play with a relatively low spread (1-5), but I have simmed my system for the games I play and do have the satisfaction of knowing I play with an edge over the house. I also play for comps, and my increased betting levels bring me plenty of value that way. I'm usually full RFB in the houses where I play. In 10 years of play I have never experienced anything but light and very occasional heat.

Bottom line, counting is no less gambling than playing perfect BS. If you're not a serious player who is out there playing 100+ days a year and trying to make an income, you will not make serious money doing it and you will still experience big swings up and down. Most importantly, the size of the swings will be bigger and you do need to be prepared for that. Very exciting when its an upswing, and kick to the guy when its a downswing. But if you're already a gambler at heart, you should be able to handle that.

In any case, just wanted to jump in. It sounds, like me, that you have a love of the game. I just wanted assure you, that counting can be done in various degrees, and based on the way you're enjoying the game now, I bet you'll find that you'll enjoy it even more if you ever look into it further.

Have fun out there.