Some things I've discovered over the years: Part 3

[moo321]

Attention to the bottom line is absolutely crucial for anyone that wants to make money counting. Comps are an absolutely crucial part of the equation: comps can literally double your EV, quarter your ROR and vastly increase your enjoyment of life.

My personal belief is that card counters shouldn't pay for a damn thing on their trips, besides transportation costs (airfare, gas, etc.). It is such a massive increase to your bottom line when you have little to no expenses, that it simply can't be ignored.

I will go on the record that counters who never use player's cards are incorrect. Yes, it may protect your longevity, but you're giving up too much for it. On the other hand, playing SOME sessions unrated can be beneficial for longevity. But at some point, it's worth a lot of real money to get meals and a room for free.

Before anyone tries counting as a serious hobby/business venture, they MUST understand the ins and outs of the comp system. "Comp City" and "The Frugal Gambler" are must reads. I think this is mandatory for counters to make it in the long run. I have whored so many comps I didn't deserve, it's not even funny. We're talking thousands of dollars, here.

Also, you need to understand how to use cash and cash equivalent offers. Some casinos I play at send me cash offers, others matchplays. These are worth real money. When used and abused properly, it is possible for one to go completely negative on costs; that is, between free meals, rooms, and EV from matchplays, and after gas or airfare, you may already have positive EV.

I believe it should be the goal of every counter to be in the black BEFORE they hit the tables. It is quite possible, and quite helpful in the ROR department to do so. I have made several thousand dollars off of cash and cash equivalent comps; keep your eyes open.

Lastly, I think the comp system is fantastic for one's quality of life. Before I learned to count, I had taken one vacation. I've now taken dozens of free vacations. If I wanted to, I could roll out of bed tomorrow and have a free room in almost any state with casino gambling. That is very real, awesome power to behold. I get treated like a king, get my ass kissed by professional ass-kissers (hosts), and I don't deserve any of it.

I recall a few months back sitting in a steak house with one member from the boards, eating possibly the best meal of my life, after taking a pile of money from a casino. He turned to me as our surf and turf came out and said "This is so wrong!" I couldn't agree more.

 

[eandre]

I would guess that once you get barred from either the Boyd group, Harrahs, ect...and they take back maybe $5000 worth of points then your opinion will change. Then you will have no choice but to play without comp points. If you are a big player and a photo is on record, then the group's Casinos are off limits for a year or two...ouch.
I agree that free is good, but play for 30 years or so and your cover is difficult to protect with the properties knowing who you really are. Employees move between Casinos and my experience is that properties help each other. I believe your level of play is proportional to their concern with counters. If one remains a red/green chip player then longevity is easier to maintain. High stakes play is much much more difficult to stay off the radar.
I am not suggesting what level anyone plays, nor do I care...this is just my own experience.

 

[apex]

This is an interesting topic. Both sides of the playing rated for comps/unrated no-comps debate seem to have similar numbers and good points. Recently I have been playing more unrated. I am worried about showing too many wins on my card and getting kicked out. I guess each situation is different. Do you have any tips besides rat-holing to avoid this? At my local spot I am usually the only person playing green (all others play red only) so it seems pretty obvious when I leave with extra greens. I have been thinking of taking friends and passing them chips while buying in a lot to show some losses. Casinos do look into consistent winners right? If you play mostly carnival games does it matter if you are a consistent winner as much as blackjack?

 

[Blue Efficacy]

If you get barred and lose your comp points, well, obvious guy here saying that you'd never have even had those points in the first place playing unrated

The casinos will figure out you're a threat to them if you're playing rated or not. Might as well take the casino for all you can before you're barred. Me, I like food, rooms and promotional free cash offers.

Once you're barred playing rated, either you're known there well enough to continue play unrated or you're not. This won't change if you had been previously using a player card.

As for low vs. high stakes, you need the comps much more at lower stakes, sure. But as your stakes increase, you will be more suspicious for not using a card. All players should use a card. If you're playing at a very high level, hopefully you know how to use enough cover to maximize your play time before being caught, anyway.

 

[sagefr0g]

interesting post moo, errhh you have a link for part 2? i haven't been able to find it.

edit: ahh never mind found it.....

 

[Blue Efficacy]

This is an interesting topic. Both sides of the playing rated for comps/unrated no-comps debate seem to have similar numbers and good points. Recently I have been playing more unrated. I am worried about showing too many wins on my card and getting kicked out. I guess each situation is different. Do you have any tips besides rat-holing to avoid this? At my local spot I am usually the only person playing green (all others play red only) so it seems pretty obvious when I leave with extra greens. I have been thinking of taking friends and passing them chips while buying in a lot to show some losses. Casinos do look into consistent winners right? If you play mostly carnival games does it matter if you are a consistent winner as much as blackjack?

One idea is to always start unrated. If you have been betting heavily and are losing, when a new player stops in, and turns in their card, say to PC, "oh right, i have my card too! could you back up my time please?"

Also there is not much you can do if you are the only one playing a certain denomination. You could try mixing up greens and reds, though this slows down the game. But ratholing reds beats no ratholing at all. I have no choice but to do this at my favorite store as they will never give you green chips or higher for any reason without PC acknowledgement. You bet $150 in red, double down, they either pay you $300 in red or you have to ask for green and the PC has to acknowledge it.

 

[apex]

One idea is to always start unrated. If you have been betting heavily and are losing, when a new player stops in, and turns in their card, say to PC, "oh right, i have my card too! could you back up my time please?"

Excellent idea. I will give this a try.

 

[yesiamred]

Comps

I throw a hundred dollar bill in a slot machine and end up with typically a win in the slots, 10 free hotels stays a month at one store plus other extras too. I don't a use card for table game-slots only which is a great cover. :grin:

 

[blackjack avenger]

Altered Realities

Often one alters their play for comps, are not as aggressive. So one may end up not earning so much from those comps because of lost EV.

Playing rated and aggressive would maximize EV, but probably the highest probability of being caught.

The biggest advantage to playing unrated is of course no paper trail.

Playing selectively rated either by casino or if losing is a good idea.

An expensive steak in a steakhouse is nice, but should one value that as a $100 meal? If you bought your own meals would you only spend $20? If the answer is yes then probably the value of that meal is only $20.

Same for rooms, if your comped room is $500, but you would have only payed $100 out of your own pocket then the value of the room is $100.

Playing for comps is another decision we have to make on how aggressive one wants to be.

Some really like the steaks and rooms, others may prefer the aggressive play and cash that unrated offers.

:joker::whip:
good comps or $

 

[BJgenius007]

One idea is to always start unrated. If you have been betting heavily and are losing, when a new player stops in, and turns in their card, say to PC, "oh right, i have my card too! could you back up my time please?"

I just saw exactly the same thing one week ago. The pit boss told the guy "the record shows you only play slot machine and gave us your card after you play a while and losing. You must be a counter." The guy did not know how to respond to pit boss.

 

[MAZ]

I just saw exactly the same thing one week ago. The pit boss told the guy "the record shows you only play slot machine and gave us your card after you play a while and losing. You must be a counter." The guy did not know how to respond to pit boss.

I call BS on you. I think you are lying. Just my rather educated opinion.

 

[Blue Efficacy]

I just saw exactly the same thing one week ago. The pit boss told the guy "the record shows you only play slot machine and gave us your card after you play a while and losing. You must be a counter." The guy did not know how to respond to pit boss.

I agree with MAZ that sounds like BS, unless this guy was completely obvious about it. Of course you can't do this trick every single time.

 

[Blue Efficacy]

Often one alters their play for comps, are not as aggressive. So one may end up not earning so much from those comps because of lost EV.

Playing rated and aggressive would maximize EV, but probably the highest probability of being caught.

The biggest advantage to playing unrated is of course no paper trail.

Playing selectively rated either by casino or if losing is a good idea.

An expensive steak in a steakhouse is nice, but should one value that as a $100 meal? If you bought your own meals would you only spend $20? If the answer is yes then probably the value of that meal is only $20.

Same for rooms, if your comped room is $500, but you would have only payed $100 out of your own pocket then the value of the room is $100.

Playing for comps is another decision we have to make on how aggressive one wants to be.

Some really like the steaks and rooms, others may prefer the aggressive play and cash that unrated offers.

:joker::whip:
good comps or $

No the meal is still worth $100. Just because you're treating yourself to something you normally wouldn't buy doesn't make it worth any less. It will certainly be nicer than the $20 meal. Some people put value on nice things, even if they wouldn't spend their own cash on it.

If it's a place you play regularly you wouldn't want to play aggressively anyway. I heard that some places, if you're a regular with no card they will make an account for you anyway. But you don't get any comps out of it :sad:

 

[alwayssplitaces]

It's nice that I can stay at any Harrah's casino free except for some weekends and it shows I'm a losing slot and poker player for the most part.

I'm afraid to use my player's card at the only Harrah's store with decent blackjack rules (Harrah's Chester, because it's Pennsylvania state law to offer 6/8 decks LS DAS DA2). I don't want to lose my comps I get elsewhere.

So I just use it for poker and get other people to play the slots using my card. The blackjack rules offered by all Harrah's properties in Vegas are terrible (8D 6-5). I never play blackjack where I stay. I realize just how much of a waste of time it is to play the slots when I'm talking to someone playing the slots with my players card and watching them lose. But at least I'm not losing my own money.

If you're playing higher stakes in blackjack, find a poker player who looks similar to you, and ask to borrow his card and explain why you need it. Use it for blackjack and play to your heart's content. Poker players don't get much comps on their own without playing slots extensively, so they will get a lot of comps for your blackjack play, especially at the black chip level. In exchange, you're not giving up your own identity.

 

[bj21abc]

The comp systems I have seen seem to move much of the decision-making away from staff to automated systems - I would assume this is not so when you are spreading black to black -

How much of Comp City do you think is still relevant, and how much passe ?

As to EV - I would say it's simple math. If I have to give up $X in EV (lower spread, cover, etc) to get $Y in comps (Y being how much the camps are worth - to me), which is greater...

D.

I will go on the record that counters who never use player's cards are incorrect. Yes, it may protect your longevity, but you're giving up too much for it. On the other hand, playing SOME sessions unrated can be beneficial for longevity. But at some point, it's worth a lot of real money to get meals and a room for free.

Before anyone tries counting as a serious hobby/business venture, they MUST understand the ins and outs of the comp system. "Comp City" and "The Frugal Gambler" are must reads. I think this is mandatory for counters to make it in the long run. I have whored so many comps I didn't deserve, it's not even funny. We're talking thousands of dollars, here.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Those Who Have Been Robbed, Thos Who Have Not

I wonder what the breakdown is if those who have been decomped, backed off and 86'ed are anti comp while those who have not had this done are pro comps. Probably many who have been 86ed won't say?

Also, I wonder the breakdown between pro and non pro. I would guess pros are more anti comp while semi pros are more pro comp. Possibly pros do not play rated because they have already been decomped. Just a guess.

:joker::whip:
good comp points and $

 

[aslan]

I have recently switched from playing rated to playing unrated. While I agree with all hte many bennies of comps as moo pointed out, I have come to that point where I believe that being ID-ed as a counter is inevitable if I continue playing rated. Not only would it mean an end to my comps, but it would mean a definite good ID on me through the information they have on me from my player's card and credit cards used in the same name. It's one thing for them to have some crummy picture of me, another thing to have my real name, address, and whatever. I would hate being barred from all MGM properties, all Caesar's properties, all Station Casions, all Boyd properties, all Delaware casinos, or all PA casinos. I know if they ever did want to check my play, they would have no trouble in many instances to confirm that I am card counting by review of the tapes. It's just too easy for them to do and impossible for me to avoid all appearances of being an advantage player. I love the comps, but I am kissing them goodbye. :cry:

 

[BJgenius007]

I have recently switched from playing rated to playing unrated. While I agree with all hte many bennies of comps as moo pointed out, I have come to that point where I believe that being ID-ed as a counter is inevitable if I continue playing rated. Not only would it mean an end to my comps, but it would mean a definite good ID on me through the information they have on me from my player's card and credit cards used in the same name. It's one thing for them to have some crummy picture of me, another thing to have my real name, address, and whatever. I would hate being barred from all MGM properties, all Caesar's properties, all Station Casions, all Boyd properties, all Delaware casinos, or all PA casinos. I know if they ever did want to check my play, they would have no trouble in many instances to confirm that I am card counting by review of the tapes. It's just too easy for them to do and impossible for me to avoid all appearances of being an advantage player. I love the comps, but I am kissing them goodbye. :cry:

I think you should flat bet $50 or $100 at Caesar's for two hours a day, then at least they can have free room when you visit LV.

 

[21forme]

I have recently switched from playing rated to playing unrated. While I agree with all hte many bennies of comps as moo pointed out, I have come to that point where I believe that being ID-ed as a counter is inevitable if I continue playing rated. Not only would it mean an end to my comps, but it would mean a definite good ID on me through the information they have on me from my player's card and credit cards used in the same name. It's one thing for them to have some crummy picture of me, another thing to have my real name, address, and whatever. I would hate being barred from all MGM properties, all Caesar's properties, all Station Casions, all Boyd properties, all Delaware casinos, or all PA casinos. I know if they ever did want to check my play, they would have no trouble in many instances to confirm that I am card counting by review of the tapes. It's just too easy for them to do and impossible for me to avoid all appearances of being an advantage player. I love the comps, but I am kissing them goodbye. :cry:

Good points, Aslan. I have done much the same.

 

[BJgenius007]

I call BS on you. I think you are lying. Just my rather educated opinion.

I agree with MAZ that sounds like BS, unless this guy was completely obvious about it. Of course you can't do this trick every single time.

Not BS. Actually I posted the same story about one week ago because I think it is quite entertaining. Initially stunned by the pit boss' honesty, the guy almost choked then he said, "Oh, my mom and I share the same card. She only play slot machine. And I always forgot to give my card to the dealer." He really made it even worse as pit boss checked the computer, then said "The computer said you rejected being rated." Since I sat on the third base. I took a peek on the computer screen. The computer did display "The player rejected being rated." In a well managed computerized casino, the pit boss key in such data at the same time he key in your buy-in amount. So don't try to outsmart them because it will make you more suspicious to be an AP.