Surrender 88 v 9, RA vs. MaxEV index

[bejammin075]

I've run some sims to get my index numbers for Zen, where I round to the nearest TC, and I ran "regular" (maximizing EV) and also RA (Risk Averse), and mostly the index plays are similar, but here's one that's vastly different:

88 v 9 with "regular" index is surrender at +2 for shoe (0 for single deck). For the Risk Averse index, it's +23. A super huge difference. I can't figure out why they are so different (other than I'm doing something stupid with the simulations). The index for splitting is to always split, so if the player doesn't surrender the 8,8, then by default it is a split hand.

 

[tthree]

I've run some sims to get my index numbers for Zen, where I round to the nearest TC, and I ran "regular" (maximizing EV) and also RA (Risk Averse), and mostly the index plays are similar, but here's one that's vastly different:

88 v 9 with "regular" index is surrender at +2 for shoe (0 for single deck). For the Risk Averse index, it's +23. A super huge difference. I can't figure out why they are so different (other than I'm doing something stupid with the simulations). The index for splitting is to always split, so if the player doesn't surrender the 8,8, then by default it is a split hand.

My indices are risk averse. I use HIOPT II. The surrender index for 88 v 9 is +23. With Zen counting aces and HIOPT II side counting them I would expect the Zen index to be slightly different. I am not sure about your EV maximizing index. If you think you made a mistake I would look there.

 

[bejammin075]

by "ev" maximizing index,

I just meant the regular, non-RA indexes. I had Kelly factor set to 3 (as in 1/3 kelly) and max bet at TC=8. I don't think H17, S17, DAS, NDAS options made any difference.

 

[tthree]

I just meant the regular, non-RA indexes. I had Kelly factor set to 3 (as in 1/3 kelly) and max bet at TC=8. I don't think H17, S17, DAS, NDAS options made any difference.

DAS and NDAS make all the difference. If you can't double after split, splitting is less advantageous.

 

[jack.jackson]

I've run some sims to get my index numbers for Zen, where I round to the nearest TC, and I ran "regular" (maximizing EV) and also RA (Risk Averse), and mostly the index plays are similar, but here's one that's vastly different:

88 v 9 with "regular" index is surrender at +2 for shoe (0 for single deck). For the Risk Averse index, it's +23. A super huge difference. I can't figure out why they are so different (other than I'm doing something stupid with the simulations). The index for splitting is to always split, so if the player doesn't surrender the 8,8, then by default it is a split hand.

Qfit once mentioned, that the indexes related to each other. You may want to contact support, because he often doesnt give support on these messgage boards for personal reasons.

A couple of years ago i had a similiar situation for 88vX and come to find out it was because i was generating individual indexes. Or more specifically it needed to generate the Hard 16 index first to give an accurate index for splits and surrender. Tho, this may not be your sitiuation i figured i would mention it.

 

[flyingwind]

All this talk about sims. Sounds powerful.
Would you please PM me and let me know how or what you're using to sim your own indices?

 

[bejammin075]

The index difference appears to be DAS vs NDAS

Thanks for the input, folks. Based on what Jack said, I re-ran the sims with a few additional plays checked off: 88 v 9 for splitting, and 16 v 9 for Hit/Stand, plus the 88 v 9 surrender that I was having issues with. When those 3 plays are all simmed together, it clearly toggles one way or the other with DAS vs. NDAS. It is not something to do with RA vs. non-RA.

So for surrender 88 v 9, it's +22 for DAS and +2 for nDAS for Zen. This is making sense, but I'm surprised the difference is so big. I guess if you can double after the split, you would almost never surrender, and hope for a 2 or 3 on one of the split 8s to have a nice double down. If there is no opportunity to double down after the split, then you throw in the towel at +2.