"Surrender pays 1:2"

blackriver

Well-Known Member
A few months ago i was in a blackchip game with a new dealer. At some point i surrendered (prob 16 vs a 10) and she matched 50% of my bet AND returned my original bet. I remained calm and continued playing as usual but with 2-3x my my minimum and early ramp bets. i was trying not to make a pig of myself. So much was running through my mind. most of my thoughts were of not drawing attention from the pit (ie obv not doing anythin in front of the pit or any other staff) and hopefully not from other players (i only really trippled my normal surrender rate).

About the 3rd time i did it some ploppy says "wow, thats a good deal. we should surrender everytime." Caught off gaurd (i shouldve been prepared) i say "no, you shouldnt do it too often." mostly hoping a ploppy would be convinced the situation COULDNT be as good as it appeared, but also also if he was too smart for that then maybe hed be smart enough to keep his mouth shut. all delivered in the in an blase', unargumenative tone so as not to wncourage discussion the way taking even money and other stupid things always do. while i shoulda come up with a line by the time it happened, i was happy with my on the spot answer.

somehow i managed to lose something like 60 units and had to go to the cage where i had more. line was ridic but i somehow justified skipping it (emergency, i nev do this). i texted my friends like "get the fark down here now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111111ONE"

while i was away that idiot converted another ploppy to surrender like a pig. shortly after i got back she did it with like a 17 vs a dealer 7 or something in front of the pit who saw this and corrected the dealer. soooooooooooooooo sick.

i guess this is somewhat just a story but im including it in general so others can discuss what theyd do in this spot and be prepared for the unlikely event that it happens to them. (like maybe always have a friend u can dail up just to fill up seats, etc)

having just rethought this through (for the 1000ths time) i think i shouldnt have surrendered after the 2nd time (i know, convient hindsight) just to confirm it was real and then call all my friends so we could take over the table. It was already night though and her shift would end before i could lock the table up, but the value of any possibility of protecting her was so high. but i do feel like thats the high variance play. the low variance play being to just hit it as hard as i can (except this is the only casino near me). the natural way of trying a bit of both mightve been the optimal response when variance (possibility of her being corrected before i can maximize the situ) is factored in.
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
There was a machine in laughlin that did exactly that. Took management several days to catch the error. Was nice while it lasted.
 

Lonesome Gambler

Well-Known Member
alwayssplitaces said:
In that case, you surrender every hand that isn't a natural. Yes, even a 20 vs 6.
That would be a good plan for about 2 minutes, at which point the dealer would catch on or be corrected.
 

Southpaw

Well-Known Member
This has happened to me as well. "Sure hope nobody saw that ... ," I think to myself. At this same time, a lot of dealer's were allowing one to surrender after a split as well.

SP
 

Machinist

Well-Known Member
shadroch said:
There was a machine in laughlin that did exactly that. Took management several days to catch the error. Was nice while it lasted.
Dam Shad....i've never found one of those...:( Nice find.......was that when there was actual coins run through the machine...or ticket in ticket out....
That type of stuff is sooooo sweet ...while it lasts.....:laugh:

Machinist
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
Ticket in, ticket out. The problem was there were so many ploppies playing, we couldn't do it every hand without everyone figuring it out. It was also at a casino I frequent so I didn't want to ruin my relationship with them by doing it every hand.
 
Very nice. I had a dealer doing the double down rescue rule like that. Lots of fun!

One thing you have to be prepared for in these situations is the pit confronting you and trying to make you give the money back. Of course that's illegal. One time a dealer was misplaying and after a big win, the PC asked for my winnings like a real jerk and I said, loudly and angrily "And what about all the hands I lost, you [expletives deleted]?" He shrugged and slunk away, and I got the hell out of that place.
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
People have been arrested for taking advantage of glitches in machines. Case in point being the guys on trial now for the double up VP scam. I know its different, but I'm not willing to take a chance on that. Bulls make money, Bears make money. Pigs get slaughtered.
I discussed this with my partner and we decided it was best if we played our normal bets and only surrendered a few extra hands per hour. I assumed once they discovered the flaw, they would backtrack and watch the tapes of the machine. I didn't want to be seen whacking away surrendering 20 vs 6, or anything like that. I'm not sure what the legal ramifications are, and didn't want to find out.
This exact same machine had another glitch a few weeks later. It ate your insurance bet even if the dealer had a BJ. for some reason, that one was reported much quicker than the first glitch. Last time I was there, they had changed it into a three card poker machine.
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
shadroch said:
People have been arrested for taking advantage of glitches in machines. Case in point being the guys on trial now for the double up VP scam. I know its different, but I'm not willing to take a chance on that. Bulls make money, Bears make money. Pigs get slaughtered.
I discussed this with my partner and we decided it was best if we played our normal bets and only surrendered a few extra hands per hour. I assumed once they discovered the flaw, they would backtrack and watch the tapes of the machine. I didn't want to be seen whacking away surrendering 20 vs 6, or anything like that. I'm not sure what the legal ramifications are, and didn't want to find out.
This exact same machine had another glitch a few weeks later. It ate your insurance bet even if the dealer had a BJ. for some reason, that one was reported much quicker than the first glitch. Last time I was there, they had changed it into a three card poker machine.
When I read the your first post I was wondering if the honorable thing to do would be to notify the house. Then as I read this post, I found myself agreeing with you that not being greedy, but taking a moderate amount, might be the best way to go. I mean, how could anyone feel bad about taking money from casinos? Of course, taking this philosophy too far will lead to cheating, and we all agree that that would be going too far. And the law just might see that taking full advantage of this errant machine constitutes cheating.
 

Solo player

Well-Known Member
;)
Automatic Monkey said:
Very nice. I had a dealer doing the double down rescue rule like that. Lots of fun!

One thing you have to be prepared for in these situations is the pit confronting you and trying to make you give the money back. Of course that's illegal. One time a dealer was misplaying and after a big win, the PC asked for my winnings like a real jerk and I said, loudly and angrily "And what about all the hands I lost, you [expletives deleted]?" He shrugged and slunk away, and I got the hell out of that place.
Three times I've been asked to return chips in which I did not have a winning hand. Are you saying I'm entitled to keep those chips? I always gave them back when asked. But there have been plenty of times when I was over paid and nothing was said.;)
 

Machinist

Well-Known Member
aslan said:
When I read the your first post I was wondering if the honorable thing to do would be to notify the house. Then as I read this post, I found myself agreeing with you that not being greedy, but taking a moderate amount, might be the best way to go. I mean, how could anyone feel bad about taking money from casinos? Of course, taking this philosophy too far will lead to cheating, and we all agree that that would be going too far. And the law just might see that taking full advantage of this errant machine constitutes cheating.
Blah blah blah........I suppose you give back all your mispays too... How about a 100$ bill on the floor???? Do you try to find who that belongs to??? They could run the tape back. Nope if there is a flaw...that is their mistake.....screw em.....that's basically what Card counting is anyway....... Shad's deal is sort of iffy...but if i worried about the mcdonald employees watching me from the eye in the sky,,,i'd have been out of business years ago..
Shad how about if you were to sit at a bank of vp machines .......they all had crap pays except one......it was a full pay machine....would you play it or tell the management...Was it a mistake on their part or not????
Screw them...aint a jury or judge in the country gonna take that case...
Here's one that i use all the time if i can find them and i do...Full pay Video BJ...50 machines in the house and only one has 3:2 BJ's on it.... Obviously a mistake.....The house wants their 2+% advantage and here an employee has made a mistake and programmed it wrong....What do you do????? SCREW THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Aslan...i showed you a certain machine that takes advantage of ploppy ingnorance.......do you "steal" the ploppies "bonus" or do you politely tell the little old lady that if she would only play a few more spins she would get a 50$ dollar bonus!!!!!???
SCREW them all of them......A dealer is exposing her bottom card......Are ya gonna run to management.......F*** no!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As long as its the CASINO's screw up..........screw them....u just used your brain to play properly!!!!
I have seen my share of OverPay machines...........NEVER have i seen anyone get charged or go to jail.......unless they caused it to happen....
FWIW to all of ya'll out there if you find a OP machine or a flashing dealer you dont want to exploit.....PM me..........I'll do it for ya!!!:eek::laugh::laugh:
Stop being scared of these morons!!!!!!!!! Everbody is way to skitterish with these goobers.......
Dont ask me how many times i have been escorted out of stores for playing their machines "too good " or not under their conditions.........F***em!!!!!!!!
BUT i do understand Shad's concern if he uses the casino for alot of his comps...It's a tough call......i have struggled with the ......" Do we hit them hard or milkem syndrome".....99% of the time i hit em as hard as possible..
And the biggest reason is .........if i dont some other hustler will.......its happend many many times to me....

Machinist
 

Solo player

Well-Known Member
Agree

Machinist said:
Blah blah blah........I suppose you give back all your mispays too... How about a 100$ bill on the floor???? Do you try to find who that belongs to??? They could run the tape back. Nope if there is a flaw...that is their mistake.....screw em.....that's basically what Card counting is anyway....... Shad's deal is sort of iffy...but if i worried about the mcdonald employees watching me from the eye in the sky,,,i'd have been out of business years ago..
Shad how about if you were to sit at a bank of vp machines .......they all had crap pays except one......it was a full pay machine....would you play it or tell the management...Was it a mistake on their part or not????
Screw them...aint a jury or judge in the country gonna take that case...
Here's one that i use all the time if i can find them and i do...Full pay Video BJ...50 machines in the house and only one has 3:2 BJ's on it.... Obviously a mistake.....The house wants their 2+% advantage and here an employee has made a mistake and programmed it wrong....What do you do????? SCREW THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Aslan...i showed you a certain machine that takes advantage of ploppy ingnorance.......do you "steal" the ploppies "bonus" or do you politely tell the little old lady that if she would only play a few more spins she would get a 50$ dollar bonus!!!!!???
SCREW them all of them......A dealer is exposing her bottom card......Are ya gonna run to management.......F*** no!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As long as its the CASINO's screw up..........screw them....u just used your brain to play properly!!!!
I have seen my share of OverPay machines...........NEVER have i seen anyone get charged or go to jail.......unless they caused it to happen....
FWIW to all of ya'll out there if you find a OP machine or a flashing dealer you dont want to exploit.....PM me..........I'll do it for ya!!!:eek::laugh::laugh:
Stop being scared of these morons!!!!!!!!! Everbody is way to skitterish with these goobers.......
Dont ask me how many times i have been escorted out of stores for playing their machines "too good " or not under their conditions.........F***em!!!!!!!!
BUT i do understand Shad's concern if he uses the casino for alot of his comps...It's a tough call......i have struggled with the ......" Do we hit them hard or milkem syndrome".....99% of the time i hit em as hard as possible..
And the biggest reason is .........if i dont some other hustler will.......its happend many many times to me....

Machinist
I could not agree more
 
shadroch said:
People have been arrested for taking advantage of glitches in machines. Case in point being the guys on trial now for the double up VP scam. I know its different, but I'm not willing to take a chance on that. Bulls make money, Bears make money. Pigs get slaughtered.
I discussed this with my partner and we decided it was best if we played our normal bets and only surrendered a few extra hands per hour. I assumed once they discovered the flaw, they would backtrack and watch the tapes of the machine. I didn't want to be seen whacking away surrendering 20 vs 6, or anything like that. I'm not sure what the legal ramifications are, and didn't want to find out.
This exact same machine had another glitch a few weeks later. It ate your insurance bet even if the dealer had a BJ. for some reason, that one was reported much quicker than the first glitch. Last time I was there, they had changed it into a three card poker machine.
Those guys actively manipulated a VP machine and it appears they may have had inside help. If you are playing a BJ machine, the machine enforces the rules and all you do is press buttons and see what it does. If there's a "Surrender" button you're allowed to push it whenever you want.

But I still wouldn't surrender a hand like 20 vs. 6, enough money to be made surrendering only -EV hands. I would consider busting off a player's card in a few of the slots to keep the ploppies away.
 
Solo player said:
;)

Three times I've been asked to return chips in which I did not have a winning hand. Are you saying I'm entitled to keep those chips? I always gave them back when asked. But there have been plenty of times when I was over paid and nothing was said.;)
Under civil law, you would be required to return a mispay just like you would be required to return too much change to a cashier. But keeping it is not same as stealing it. You didn't take it, they gave it to you without being shown a gun and you accepted it. There could be a statute for something like trover (trover= not-quite-theft, keeping something you found, using something without permission) that could be used to prosecute you criminally but in reality if you walked away with mispaid chips the best they could expect is a civil judgment.
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
I have been asked to return chips gained from dealer errors, when the "eye" called down.
I would leave at that point, as they had "outed" themselves as surveilling my table.
 
Macho

Machinist said:
Blah blah blah........I suppose you give back all your mispays too... How about a 100$ bill on the floor???? Do you try to find who that belongs to??? They could run the tape back. Nope if there is a flaw...that is their mistake.....screw em.....that's basically what Card counting is anyway....... Shad's deal is sort of iffy...but if i worried about the mcdonald employees watching me from the eye in the sky,,,i'd have been out of business years ago..
Shad how about if you were to sit at a bank of vp machines .......they all had crap pays except one......it was a full pay machine....would you play it or tell the management...Was it a mistake on their part or not????
Screw them...aint a jury or judge in the country gonna take that case...
Here's one that i use all the time if i can find them and i do...Full pay Video BJ...50 machines in the house and only one has 3:2 BJ's on it.... Obviously a mistake.....The house wants their 2+% advantage and here an employee has made a mistake and programmed it wrong....What do you do????? SCREW THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Aslan...i showed you a certain machine that takes advantage of ploppy ingnorance.......do you "steal" the ploppies "bonus" or do you politely tell the little old lady that if she would only play a few more spins she would get a 50$ dollar bonus!!!!!???
SCREW them all of them......A dealer is exposing her bottom card......Are ya gonna run to management.......F*** no!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As long as its the CASINO's screw up..........screw them....u just used your brain to play properly!!!!
I have seen my share of OverPay machines...........NEVER have i seen anyone get charged or go to jail.......unless they caused it to happen....
FWIW to all of ya'll out there if you find a OP machine or a flashing dealer you dont want to exploit.....PM me..........I'll do it for ya!!!:eek::laugh::laugh:
Stop being scared of these morons!!!!!!!!! Everbody is way to skitterish with these goobers.......
Dont ask me how many times i have been escorted out of stores for playing their machines "too good " or not under their conditions.........F***em!!!!!!!!
BUT i do understand Shad's concern if he uses the casino for alot of his comps...It's a tough call......i have struggled with the ......" Do we hit them hard or milkem syndrome".....99% of the time i hit em as hard as possible..
And the biggest reason is .........if i dont some other hustler will.......its happend many many times to me....

Machinist
I dig your post the most!:cool::cool::1st:

I also say "F...em all to hel#":laugh::laugh::laugh::devil:

CP
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
Machinist said:
Blah blah blah........I suppose you give back all your mispays too... How about a 100$ bill on the floor???? Do you try to find who that belongs to??? They could run the tape back. Nope if there is a flaw...that is their mistake.....screw em.....that's basically what Card counting is anyway....... Shad's deal is sort of iffy...but if i worried about the mcdonald employees watching me from the eye in the sky,,,i'd have been out of business years ago..
Shad how about if you were to sit at a bank of vp machines .......they all had crap pays except one......it was a full pay machine....would you play it or tell the management...Was it a mistake on their part or not????
Screw them...aint a jury or judge in the country gonna take that case...
Here's one that i use all the time if i can find them and i do...Full pay Video BJ...50 machines in the house and only one has 3:2 BJ's on it.... Obviously a mistake.....The house wants their 2+% advantage and here an employee has made a mistake and programmed it wrong....What do you do????? SCREW THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Aslan...i showed you a certain machine that takes advantage of ploppy ingnorance.......do you "steal" the ploppies "bonus" or do you politely tell the little old lady that if she would only play a few more spins she would get a 50$ dollar bonus!!!!!???
SCREW them all of them......A dealer is exposing her bottom card......Are ya gonna run to management.......F*** no!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As long as its the CASINO's screw up..........screw them....u just used your brain to play properly!!!!
I have seen my share of OverPay machines...........NEVER have i seen anyone get charged or go to jail.......unless they caused it to happen....
FWIW to all of ya'll out there if you find a OP machine or a flashing dealer you dont want to exploit.....PM me..........I'll do it for ya!!!:eek::laugh::laugh:
Stop being scared of these morons!!!!!!!!! Everbody is way to skitterish with these goobers.......
Dont ask me how many times i have been escorted out of stores for playing their machines "too good " or not under their conditions.........F***em!!!!!!!!
BUT i do understand Shad's concern if he uses the casino for alot of his comps...It's a tough call......i have struggled with the ......" Do we hit them hard or milkem syndrome".....99% of the time i hit em as hard as possible..
And the biggest reason is .........if i dont some other hustler will.......its happend many many times to me....

Machinist
Apparently, I hit a nerve. sorry about that. Also, apparently, you did not bother to read my full post. That's okay. Anyway, I did not write it to impress you or anyone with my instant view, it was just my honest feelings.

I always take mispays, although I feel a teensy bit bad about it, and I always take the benefit of hole card flashes, and I don't feel the least bit funny about that. As I said in my OP, it is hard to feel bad about taking money from casinos.

Lastly, the machine thing-- what in the world would there to be gained by telling the little old lady she should continue playing, and how is that even related to the current discussion? I have never felt it my role to educate the ploppy public on the errors of their ways, so I feel that really came out of left field. By the same token, I don't apologize for having normal feelings and questions about what constitutes fair play. If you don't, I think you've already left the human plane. Sorry, but I am not yet that superior.
 

Machinist

Well-Known Member
aslan said:
Apparently, I hit a nerve. sorry about that. Also, apparently, you did not bother to read my full post. That's okay. Anyway, I did not write it to impress you or anyone with my instant view, it was just my honest feelings.

I always take mispays, although I feel a teensy bit bad about it, and I always take the benefit of hole card flashes, and I don't feel the least bit funny about that. As I said in my OP, it is hard to feel bad about taking money from casinos.

Lastly, the machine thing-- what in the world would there to be gained by telling the little old lady she should continue playing, and how is that even related to the current discussion? I have never felt it my role to educate the ploppy public on the errors of their ways, so I feel that really came out of left field. By the same token, I don't apologize for having normal feelings and questions about what constitutes fair play. If you don't, I think you've already left the human plane. Sorry, but I am not yet that superior.
OOOOPsssssss Sorry Aslan.......!!!! :laugh: This half rant wasn't targeting you...(we can say targeting .......can't we??)... Anyways...i apologize it definitely wasn't AT you ....Just some different scenerios out there in this world we live in...
I just kinda used you as an unsuspecting pawn...sorry. The whole post was about different situations and you happened to pop into mind with the machines deals...As a few others on this site are privy to.
This whole post was about the Stores.. and how I feel about them and their actions!!!!
Again sorry!!!!!:) Thats my story and i'm sticking to it!!!!:p:p

Machinist
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
Machinist said:
OOOOPsssssss Sorry Aslan.......!!!! :laugh: This half rant wasn't targeting you...(we can say targeting .......can't we??)... Anyways...i apologize it definitely wasn't AT you ....Just some different scenerios out there in this world we live in...
I just kinda used you as an unsuspecting pawn...sorry. The whole post was about different situations and you happened to pop into mind with the machines deals...As a few others on this site are privy to.
This whole post was about the Stores.. and how I feel about them and their actions!!!!
Again sorry!!!!!:) Thats my story and i'm sticking to it!!!!:p:p

Machinist
No problemo, Machinist...:laugh:
 
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