System Scammer of the Week?
- Thread starter zengrifter
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Sonny
Well-Known Member
Put this baby to bed already!
And you still have not answered any of my original questions:
“So basically this guy is saying that he can crack the RNG of any casino software?”
“On top of that, he claims that the casino's software will "develop scientific patterns" that can be tracked using the "near art-form" of "Trend Analysis"?”
“…can you give us a brief synopsis of how your system correlates to the supposed "trends" and how you can anticipate these trends?”
In fact, you haven’t given any indication of how this system beats the casinos, or even a vague description of what your software does (since it apparently doesn’t tell you how to bet or how to play). How about refuting my earlier claim that trends/patterns don’t exist? Do you have any mathematical evidence to suggest otherwise? How long does it take to recognize these “scientific patters” that you describe? A typical RNG will have a period of at least several billion numbers, how do you expect to crack the pattern with so few trials?
Until you can come up with a little more evidence (or at least some) I would ask that you “put up or shut up.” You have made a lot of unrealistic claims and have not answered a single question or given us the slightest proof that your system is effective. You should either give us answers or give us silence, although I expect that you will continue to give us neither.
-Sonny-
P.S. - Don't worry about me not "having the green." The proof of my green is below, and it is just as valid as your proof so far.
Scratching up the green isn't the problem here. Fear of losing the green to a con man who doesn't even know how many hands it takes to see accurate results is the fear. As I said before, “no intelligent player would risk $5,000 on the random results of a short-term experiment.” At least, none of us would. I guess we all know where that leaves you! :laugh:CIPHER said:
As I said before, the burden of proof lies squarely on your shoulders. It is not up to us to prove that your system works or doesn't. That is your responsibility as the developer of such theories.CIPHER said:
And you still have not answered any of my original questions:
“So basically this guy is saying that he can crack the RNG of any casino software?”
“On top of that, he claims that the casino's software will "develop scientific patterns" that can be tracked using the "near art-form" of "Trend Analysis"?”
“…can you give us a brief synopsis of how your system correlates to the supposed "trends" and how you can anticipate these trends?”
In fact, you haven’t given any indication of how this system beats the casinos, or even a vague description of what your software does (since it apparently doesn’t tell you how to bet or how to play). How about refuting my earlier claim that trends/patterns don’t exist? Do you have any mathematical evidence to suggest otherwise? How long does it take to recognize these “scientific patters” that you describe? A typical RNG will have a period of at least several billion numbers, how do you expect to crack the pattern with so few trials?
Until you can come up with a little more evidence (or at least some) I would ask that you “put up or shut up.” You have made a lot of unrealistic claims and have not answered a single question or given us the slightest proof that your system is effective. You should either give us answers or give us silence, although I expect that you will continue to give us neither.
-Sonny-
P.S. - Don't worry about me not "having the green." The proof of my green is below, and it is just as valid as your proof so far.
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zengrifter
Banned
Hey, Liquid Chips
Hey, Liquid Chips - we weren't overly kind to your scientist friend CIPHER. Can you answer some of Sonny's response questions? zg
Ps - You never know who might stop by the BJINFO forums. I'm hoping for Jerry Patterson next.
Simple - use CHAOS THEORY! Any first-year student knows that!Sonny said:
Hey, Liquid Chips - we weren't overly kind to your scientist friend CIPHER. Can you answer some of Sonny's response questions? zg
Ps - You never know who might stop by the BJINFO forums. I'm hoping for Jerry Patterson next.
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zengrifter
Banned
CIPHER price: $595+
Apparently it originally sold for $595, but now it costs a percentage of the win. zg
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"The purchase price of the CIPHER program is $595.00 and that includes unlimited access to the aforementioned daily tutorials for one full year."
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"Lastly, the CIPHER program will not be for sale at any price. Moreover the CIPHER program will be made available to specific CIPHER LAB members on a recurring fee basis only."
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CIPHER, Cracking the code!
(He started to sound like Doug Grant, does anyone know what Grant looks like?)
Apparently it originally sold for $595, but now it costs a percentage of the win. zg
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"The purchase price of the CIPHER program is $595.00 and that includes unlimited access to the aforementioned daily tutorials for one full year."
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"Lastly, the CIPHER program will not be for sale at any price. Moreover the CIPHER program will be made available to specific CIPHER LAB members on a recurring fee basis only."
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CIPHER, Cracking the code!
(He started to sound like Doug Grant, does anyone know what Grant looks like?)
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zengrifter
Banned
TARGET still for sale
Here - (Dead link: http://www.casinogamblingedge.com/)ScottH said:
Jerry Patterson,from what I understand,was one of the top guys in the card counting game and wrote a number of books. He later went into fringe areas of the game and developed systems that he could never quite prove-card clumping,non-random shuffles,and such.At least,thats my impression of him. He used to be very well respected,but now is the butt of many jokes.
Friends!
I would suggest playing a few sessions with Cipher. You would at worst case enjoy some good hands of black jack and understand a novel approach to gaining the edge against the casino. Remember, I never played a hand of black jack. I could see my self getting lucky a couple of times, however 75 times, played two sessions last night for a win of 278. Spent less than 30 minutes of my time. So I guess my net message is just play some joint sessions...can't hurt.
Cheers,
Chris
I would suggest playing a few sessions with Cipher. You would at worst case enjoy some good hands of black jack and understand a novel approach to gaining the edge against the casino. Remember, I never played a hand of black jack. I could see my self getting lucky a couple of times, however 75 times, played two sessions last night for a win of 278. Spent less than 30 minutes of my time. So I guess my net message is just play some joint sessions...can't hurt.
Cheers,
Chris
QFIT
Well-Known Member
If indeed he is asking for a percentage of the win; this is one of the oldest gambling scams. See http://www.blackjack-scams.com/html/free_systems.html for an explanation of how this hurts the player.
Sonny
Well-Known Member
Very well put. Here is the whole history (LONG!):shadroch said:
http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/offtarget.htm
Here's the short version: He used to be a solid Advantage Player and shuffle tracker, but then began selling useless betting systems. He helped to pioneer such fallacies as “non-random” shuffles, like-card clumping, player biased tables, dealer breaking (aka dealer dumping) tables, exploitable streaks or patterns in the game, “short term” winning systems, progression and “money management” systems, “card flow” prediction techniques, exploitable online RNGs, and many other inaccurate theories that have been thoroughly disproved by knowledgeable players. Like most system sellers, he had no proof that his system worked and relied on limited (and selective) playing records to back up his claims.
He also developed the TARGET system which relied on finding tables with empty chip racks and full ash trays as a way to identify favorable situations. There have certainly been plenty of jokes over the years!
In fact, much of his nonsense sounds very similar to Cipher’s system! Here are a few quotes from one of Patterson’s books (yes, I actually own it):
“Even though we haven’t figured out the [RNG] algorithm, pseudo random numbers may present us with blackjack game patterns that may be predictable.”
“Get a feel for the casino’s RNG. Are there patterns? Is the game choppy? How long does the chop last before you lose seven or eleven units? Did your winning prior to the loss of a progression cover the loss? Is a winning choppy pattern evident after several successive days of play?”
“The feasibility of this method is right at the edge of the state-of-the-art.”
Hmmm, that sounds mighty familiar, doesn’t it? It’s almost a “near art-form” of “trend analysis“ isn’t it? Once you’ve smelled a load of crap, you can recognize the smell from miles away.:cow: The familiar phrases and lack of proof are always the first thing to start stinking, then the ignorant (“1,750 hands is statistically significant“), arrogant (I’ve won tons of "green" so I must be right, “you just don't know what the hell you're talking about“) and rude (“Put up or shut up”, “any of you clowns have the balls“) behavior gives away the two-bit scammer. If he had something worthwhile to say, he would have said it by now instead of throwing insults at everyone when he can‘t answer our simple questions.
-Sonny-
Sonny
Well-Known Member
And don't forget about the "testimonials" from winning players who use his system! We've even got a few of them posting here (although, not surprisingly, very few). I wonder if they've ever tried Swami Pastrami's system:QFIT said:
http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/One_Million_Roulette_Experts.htm
-Sonny-
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zengrifter
Banned
Thanks for stopping by! zgCIPHER said:
azbetsgonewild
Active Member
This is the same Cipher from casinomeister??
Here are my thoughts on the matter.
I was a computer engineering student, and the discussion of RNG's came up on a couple of occasions, and everyone seemed to agree that a computer could never create a TRUE RNG. However, the patterns and permutations would be impossilbe for the human mind to percieve. While in theory, if this were true it would be possible for a computer to detect. But....
According to your software you have found some sort of 'crack' for the behavior pattern of the casino.
While I would be possibly willing to try this with an investment of $50, I would be extatic to find it actually worked, I have my sincerest doubts and I have doubts that anyone with $5k to burn is willing to try. First off, if there were actual patterns detectable by software, as soon as a software provider figured out someone knew the real scoop they would simply change up thus making it useless, a casino looks pretty damn hard at anyone bringing in a win of over $5k and certainly looks hard at any unusually large bets on one hand. Pretty much in short, they would be on your A$% like flies on Sh#$
I find it more likely that this is another try to get people to risk big money at an online casino. Either that, or you are totally delusional and taking selective events as proof and blocking out the ones that balance it the other way.
Here are my thoughts on the matter.
I was a computer engineering student, and the discussion of RNG's came up on a couple of occasions, and everyone seemed to agree that a computer could never create a TRUE RNG. However, the patterns and permutations would be impossilbe for the human mind to percieve. While in theory, if this were true it would be possible for a computer to detect. But....
According to your software you have found some sort of 'crack' for the behavior pattern of the casino.
While I would be possibly willing to try this with an investment of $50, I would be extatic to find it actually worked, I have my sincerest doubts and I have doubts that anyone with $5k to burn is willing to try. First off, if there were actual patterns detectable by software, as soon as a software provider figured out someone knew the real scoop they would simply change up thus making it useless, a casino looks pretty damn hard at anyone bringing in a win of over $5k and certainly looks hard at any unusually large bets on one hand. Pretty much in short, they would be on your A$% like flies on Sh#$
I find it more likely that this is another try to get people to risk big money at an online casino. Either that, or you are totally delusional and taking selective events as proof and blocking out the ones that balance it the other way.
E-town-guy
Well-Known Member
I have thought about this for a while and like azbets pointed out, if you are making weird bets where you go from $1-5000 they will have some flags going off. Do it once or twice ok, but do it over and over? Don't you think the online casino would either ban you (simply because you're making too much money off them) OR try and fix their game. I don't know much about computer programming but it seems unlikely that this program could work at every online casino without some major tweeking.
Lastly, if this was such a great program you should be able to sell it for thousands of dollars. Personally if I made a program like that and it worked I wouldn't share it with anyone! I'd use it to make a living off of and a good living it would be! If it was so great and you were selling it shouldn't everyone have one? Then again, if something is too good to be true, it probably is.
Lastly, if this was such a great program you should be able to sell it for thousands of dollars. Personally if I made a program like that and it worked I wouldn't share it with anyone! I'd use it to make a living off of and a good living it would be! If it was so great and you were selling it shouldn't everyone have one? Then again, if something is too good to be true, it probably is.
Liquid Chips
Well-Known Member
In the real world of actual hands-on real-live play, they are not banning Cipher just because he wins alot. They cannot claim bonus abuse because he doesn't play for bonuses. They cannot claim card-counting because you can't do that with online casinos. If they try to fix their games, then they would get in trouble with other players noticing it and who would raise a holler about it here, on Casinomeister, OPU, and other forums.E-town-guy said:
The fact that Cipher wins consistently should make people look into how he does it. Quit spending so much time on how he shouldn't and couldn't be winning..... paralysis by analysis.:joker: If a millionaire tells you how he makes his money, do you analyze how he shouldn't be making that kind of money? Most smart people would say the proof is in the bank account. You just got to lay aside your pride and objectively try it out for yourself. Your questions will be answered as you do it.
I believe the same. The difference between a true RNG and the synthetic one would be so miniscule as to be imperceptible. This would make any sort of human interpreted trend analysis pretty much ineffective. However, a computer performing an analysis that involved billions of hands may be a whole different story.azbetsgonewild said:
Humans aren't geared for trend analysis, but pattern recognition. We search for patterns since that's what kept us alive as we evolved. Spotting the lion hiding in the grass worked for thousands of years, and we still do it to this day. Unfortunately, I seriously doubt that this skill will increase my BR in any significant way.
Sonny
Well-Known Member
YES!!!! If someone offers me a “get rich quick” scheme I always check it out before I try it. Is it legal? Is it effective? Is it something I could do without this person’s product? If someone tells me to deposit $5,000 into a casino and use their betting progression system, they had better be able to explain it to me before I try it!Liquid Chips said:
The Cipher software looks just like those bogus “day trader” software programs you see on late night TV ads. They find stock market “indicators” that “predict the flow of the market.” When the software turns green, BUY BUY BUY, when it turns red, SELL SELL SELL! It’s so easy, anyone can make millions! The software does all the work, except that the Cipher software doesn't actually do anything, it just records your play. The player will still be making the same hunches and guesses they would have been making without it!
Honestly, would you invest all of your money in an unproven system? What if the developed couldn’t even explain how it worked?
What if the developer told you that you “didn’t know what the hell you were talking about” and you “didn’t have the balls” to try his product? Does that sound like a professional sales pitch or a scam? As I said before, screenshots are not proof! After all, my screenshot has a much higher balance than yours so my system must be better.CIPHER said:
And you still have not answered a single question. You don’t seem to have any answers at all, only insults. Nobody here is going to use your worthless system so you might as well troll another website. You’ve already proven your ignorance and insulted us all. Your work here is done.
-Sonny-
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