Texas Hold Em

[cardcounter0]

Last weekend a friend came over and tried to put the touch on me. Seems he had $100 but needed $200 by the next day to pay a debt.

"So, pay just the $100 and pay the rest later", I said.
"Oh no.", he replied, "It is all or nothing, and if it is nothing I am in trouble".
"Okay, Give me the $100. There is a charity $3/$6 poker game at the American Legion. $100 is enough for a buy-in. I'll get in the game and double your money.", I said grabbing my shoes and putting them on.
"Can you guarentee that you will win?, what happens if you lose", he moaned.
I looked at him. "If you want guarentees, go to the bank and see what kind of return you will get. You said it was all or nothing, so if I lose you are still in the same boat, you can't pay. You have to give me a ride to the game, the oil is getting changed in my car."
"Okay", he agreed, "I will give you a ride to the American Legion, as soon as you double the $100 call me and I will pick you up".

So at exactly 8:00 pm I bought into the local no-fold 'em Hold -em $3/$6 limit gut-shot, flush-chasing, 7 to the flop game. At 9:00 pm, I took a short break, as they feed the players at the game (SINCE THEY TAKE A $6 RAKE!!!) and I ate some roast beef and mashed potatoes.

At 10:00 pm I called my friend. "Come get me, with your $100 buy-in you gave me and the $100 I won, you have your $200".
"WOOOHOOO! Man, I really owe you", he yelled into the phone.
"Don't worry about it. It was fun playing with the low limit donkeys again, and besides they fed me a good dinner", I said, "Now hurry up and come get me, there is a show on tv I want to watch at 10:30".

OKAY -- 2 hours of $3/$6 limit (with a break for dinner), and a $6 rake, I won $100 in those 2 hours.

How many big bets per hour was my win rate and how is that possible?

 

[BlodiaInc]

cardcounter0....

When referring to limit numbers, $x/$x refer to the BET AMOUNTS... therefore its small bet/big bet.... callypgian is right, you are wrong...period.

So limit $4/$8 is 2/4 blinds with 4/8 bets.... in no limit $4/$8 simply refers to the blinds.

Good for you and your live exploits, however until you play a meaningful sample size, I really won't believe you. Everyone lies about their win rates on forums, and happen to only include the times they win... even if you are telling the truth, it really doesn't sound like you've put in any meaningful time.... feel free to disagree... and if so, you probably have amazing games to play in around you, meaning you should play poker instead of BJ =)

And FYI, variance IS bigger in no limit games... there is no way in hell limit games have more variance than no limit games.

In concern with what stakes are beatable, it depends on your game and table selection... sometimes low stakes is more beatable, sometimes mid/high stakes is more beatable... there are fish in every game.... but what are you people considering low stakes.... realize that most of us online players consider below 2/4 as MICRO stakes

 

[cardcounter0]

there is no way in hell limit games have more variance than no limit games.

This is incorrect. I will create a post and show why this so when I have more time.

Anyways,

Due to dry conditions here, my lawn has become infested with fleas, and they have now entered the house. So tonight I had to set off some flea bombs to gas the house. Since I had to leave for a couple of hours, I went to another local charity that had started a new $3/$6 limit game.

They only had one table running and it was full when I arrived. I didn't get a seat until 10:17 pm after a little wait. I cashed out with $121 profit at 11:55 pm.

What was my BB/hour win rate, and how in the hell was that possible?
:laugh:

Meaning you should play poker instead of BJ =)

I gave up full time BJ play, after numerous barrings in the casino, and a conversation with a patron at the Gambler's Book Store in Las Vegas. He pointed out that the same idiots that stand on soft 16, and are doubling down on hard 14, and all the other moron moves you see at the blackjack tables -- those same people are sitting in the poker room, and the House does not care how skilled you are when you take their money. A light bulb went off in my head, and I have been playing poker exclusively for the past several years.

 

[BlodiaInc]

I've already had this discussion before... limit is lower variance... the only way no limit has lower variance is how you EXPRESS the std dev (what units)... this is an old argument and I don't expect you to bring anything new to the table...

I like how you forgot to acknowledge the fact that you were wrong about something simple as how limit numbers are addressed...X/X is small bet/big bet, not the blinds as it is in no limit. Therefore, until you make it clear how you are using your numbers (even if it is incorrectly) I can't answer your question about how many BB/hr you are making in your insignificant sample size.

I'm glad you got a nice game around you, keep hacking away. You should be playing poker a lot more.

 

[cardcounter0]

Fire up PokerTracker, the industry standard of tracking online poker play, and see how that program defines the term "BB/100". I think you better re-read my posts, I have never had any confusion on the terms "small bet/big bet" (although small bet is a very rarely used term), and of course I know what the small and big blinds are in a $4/$8 game (or $30/$60 for that matter).

Now I have posted the past 4 hours of my (very rare) low limit play, I normally play much higher limits. So in those 4 hours, I think I posted win rates that were beyond someone could achieve even if they had esp, or won every hand they entered, or some such nonsense. According to some posters, these win rates are mathematically impossible, and yet, I seem to have done the impossible for the last 4 hours of play.

Please explain.

limit is lower variance... the only way no limit has lower variance is how you EXPRESS the std dev (what units)...

You are correct. If you express the std dev in MEANINGFUL units, ie: use the measure in a useful manner -- no limit has lower variance. Perhaps you can share this wisdom with some other posters who feel NL has HIGHER variance, but in practical, useful, common sense terms, NL is actually LOWER VARIANCE.

 

[BlodiaInc]

sorry, but if you don't realize that a BB refers to "Big Bet" and not "Big Blind", then I think YOU need to step back and get a grip. In a $4/$8 game, 1 BB = $16.

That's wrong, 'nuff said, in a 4/8 game, the Big Bet is 8... you clearly have said otherwise and therefore I can only conclude that you do not understand what the numbers are referring to... callipygian quoted it too... the sooner you acknowledge you made a mistake, the better.

PTBB/100 is defined as big bet/100 as to not confuse it with big blind... a big bet is defined as twice the big blind. So in a 4/8 game, 3 PTBB/100 would be $24 per 100 hands... please clarify your definition instead of assuming you haven't said anything wrong before, because clearly you have.

 

[cardcounter0]

could someone please tell me my BB/hr win rate at $3/$6 (half the time played with a $6 rake)?

 

[cardcounter0]

Went back to the $3/$6 charity limit hold 'em game. Unfortunately, the girl I brought with me starting feeling bad and was tired, so I left after barely playing for 1 hour. I cashed out for a $140 profit.

Could someone add this hour into my time played, and the $140 into the profit column, and tell me my BB/hr win rate?

 

[BlodiaInc]

Went back to the $3/$6 charity limit hold 'em game. Unfortunately, the girl I brought with me starting feeling bad and was tired, so I left after barely playing for 1 hour. I cashed out for a $140 profit.

Could someone add this hour into my time played, and the $140 into the profit column, and tell me my BB/hr win rate?

doubt anyone wants to answer your question when you refuse to answer ours....

 

[cardcounter0]

doubt anyone wants to answer your question when you refuse to answer ours....

I went back thru all your posts in this thread. None of your sentences end with the "?" symbol. Using this symbol is the traditional method of asking a question. I apologize if English is your second language and you were unaware of this.

Post a question by ending the sentence with the "?" symbol, I will do my best to answer it.

I will probably ignore questions like "What is the capital of Vermont?" or the like, as it is customary to keep the questions in the general subject area of the thread. The subject of this thread is what is the expected EV, Win Rates, Variance and Bankroll requirements of Low Limit Hold 'Em. Or something close to that nature.

Again, if English is your second language, I apologize, but I am curious to the use of the word "ours" in your statement: when you refuse to answer ours.... Do you post here with a little mouse in your pocket?

:cat:

 

[BlodiaInc]

I went back thru all your posts in this thread. None of your sentences end with the "?" symbol. Using this symbol is the traditional method of asking a question. I apologize if English is your second language and you were unaware of this.

Post a question by ending the sentence with the "?" symbol, I will do my best to answer it.

I will probably ignore questions like "What is the capital of Vermont?" or the like, as it is customary to keep the questions in the general subject area of the thread. The subject of this thread is what is the expected EV, Win Rates, Variance and Bankroll requirements of Low Limit Hold 'Em. Or something close to that nature.

Again, if English is your second language, I apologize, but I am curious to the use of the word "ours" in your statement: when you refuse to answer ours.... Do you post here with a little mouse in your pocket?

:cat:

way to be cute, you shmuck... I'm done with this thread... I guess I have to write in proper English for you to understand something. Why don't you actually try to be reasonable for once.

?

 

[cardcounter0]

way to be cute, you shmuck... I'm done with this thread... I guess I have to write in proper English for you to understand something. Why don't you actually try to be reasonable for once.

?

I thought the request to actually type a question before expecting an answer was perfectly reasonable. Sorry. I will try to be better at mind reading (after all, based on my low limit hold 'em win rate, I must be have excellent mind reading esp abilities, since that is the only mathematical explanation for such large BB/hr rates). Next time I will answer "our" questions before they are even typed.

I think writing things here in proper English is also a resonable request. That is the primary means of communication here. You could write here in Romanian, as I also understand that language, but I don't think any of the other readers here would understand. As they say at the poker tables, "English only, please".

 

[callipygian]

I AM STILL WAITING FOR YOU TO SHOW ME IN THE ORIGINAL POST THAT I MADE THAT YOU RESPONDED TO, WHERE I USED THE PHRASE "TIGHT PASSIVE". PLEASE CUT AND PASTE IT. SHOW ME. YOU MAKE UP WORDS THAT YOU THINK I USED, THEN ARGUE THAT I AM WRONG.

One More Time: SHOW ME IN MY ORIGINIAL POST WHERE I USED THE PHRASE "TIGHT PASSIVE".

In case you missed it: CAN YOU FIND IN MY ORIGINAL POST WHERE I SAID "TIGHT PASSIVE"? AFTER YOU FIND THAT, THEN YOU CAN ARGUE ABOUT IF IT IS CORRECT. HAHAHA.

It doesn't matter whether you said weak-tight or tight passive. Either one is wrong, because players ARE NOT TIGHT. You can argue that weak and passive are different all you want - you're probably wrong, but you can probably argue some sort of semantic difference.

What you cannot argue, though, is that characterization of players as tight in ANY sense of the word is correct.

"$1/$2 no limit": small blind = $1, big blind = $2. (BIG BET = $4).
"$4/$8 limit": small blind = $2, big blind = $4, (big bet = $8)
sorry, but the term "small bet" really isn't used. SB, BB (big blind) and when talking win rates or bankroll BB (big bets).

SORRY BUT TWICE THE BIG BLIND IS CONSIDERED A "BIG BET" AND THAT IS WHAT THE "BB" REFERS TO WHEN WIN RATES ARE DISCUSSED.

Exactly.

Which is why you were an idiot for posting this:

sorry, but if you don't realize that a BB refers to "Big Bet" and not "Big Blind", then I think YOU need to step back and get a grip. In a $4/$8 game, 1 BB = $16.

So, you are now admitting that you don't know what a "Big Bet" is?

If you think those things are true, it is a good sign of how much you do not know.

No, you know what is a good sign of how much I know?

The fact that when I sit down at a $4/$8 table, I know how much to bet on the turn.

You know what else is a good sign of how much I know?

The fact that when I sit down at a low limit table, I know whether the players are loose or tight.

I suggest that anyone reading this thread who believes a turn bet in $4/$8 limit is $16 and that players are tight follow cardcounter0's advice, and I suggest everyone else disregard it.

 

[callipygian]

Now I have posted the past 4 hours of my (very rare) low limit play

:laugh:

Again, if English is your second language, I apologize, but I am curious to the use of the word "ours" in your statement: when you refuse to answer ours.... Do you post here with a little mouse in your pocket?

If intelligent posting is your second language, I apologize, but I am curious as to your curiosity regarding his use of the plural possessive. More than one person has asked a question in this thread to you, and you have failed to answer any of the properly punctuated questions.

Are you, by any chance, confusing $4/$8 with $8/$16?

Be honest - have you played even a single hand of low limit hold'em at a casino?

Well, you have failed to answer them directly, at least. You did answer them indirectly, which is, of course, why this post leads off with :laugh:

 

[cardcounter0]

So, you are now admitting that you don't know what a "Big Bet" is?

Okay, YES!!! YES!!!!!! I ADMIT IT!!!!!! I MADE A TYPO!!!!! WHOOOHOOO!!!

If you think I have been playing poker for ten years and didn't realize when I signed up for a $10/$20 limit game the small blind was $5, the big blind was $10 and I would have to bet $20 on the turn, then are you going to admit you are an idiot for making such an assumption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cardcounter0
If you think those things are true, it is a good sign of how much you do not know.

No, you know what is a good sign of how much I know?

The fact that when I sit down at a $4/$8 table, I know how much to bet on the turn.

WOW QUITE AN ACOMPLISHMENT. SOMETIMES YOU SHOULDN"T BET ANYTHING ON THE TURN, GUESS YOU STILL GOT SOME THINGS TO LEARN.

If knowing how much to bet on the turn is your idea of knowledge, I can see why you can't fathom beating a low limit game for more than 2bb/hr.

You know what else is a good sign of how much I know?

The fact that when I sit down at a low limit table, I know whether the players are loose or tight.

If you are basing "loose" or "tight" simply on starting hand selection, then you are like one baby step beyond LEVEL 1. You might try thinking in terms of "AGRESSIVE" "PASSIVE" "WEAK" etc.

Will they call a turn check/raise? will they come back and 3-bet a flop with bottom pair? A tight player will not, a loose player will -- regardless of their preflop hand selection.

In fact, IT IS CORRECT TO PLAY LOOSE, in a low limit limp fest game.
If you are sitting around folding, waiting for AA, KK, or 9 other top premium hands when there are 5-6 limpers to every flop, and 3 calling to the river, NO WONDER YOU CAN"T WIN MORE THAN 2 BBs.

If you get 6-7 limpers and they are passive calling stations, ALMOST ANY TWO CARDS ARE CORRECT TO PLAY -- YOU ARE GETTING IMPLIED ODDS.

 

[callipygian]

Okay, YES!!! YES!!!!!! I ADMIT IT!!!!!! I MADE A TYPO!!!!! WHOOOHOOO!!!

You made two.

First, you criticized my calculations of win rate. Then, when I suggested you were confused, you reiterated your mistake - with an insult, to boot. You're going to have a hard time selling this exchange as a simple typo.

WOW, you sure do tip a lot, no wonder you aren't making any money. In the $4/$8 game I gave as an example 1 BB going to rake and tip would be $16.

No, it'd be $8. Are you, by any chance, confusing $4/$8 with $8/$16?

sorry, but if you don't realize that a BB refers to "Big Bet" and not "Big Blind", then I think YOU need to step back and get a grip. In a $4/$8 game, 1 BB = $16.

What, did your finger slip from the "8" key and accidentally hit "1" and "6"? Twice?

If you think I have been playing poker for ten years and didn't realize when I signed up for a $10/$20 limit game the small blind was $5, the big blind was $10 and I would have to bet $20 on the turn, then are you going to admit you are an idiot for making such an assumption.

Yes, of course, I am the idiot for assuming you don't know what a big bet is. How silly of me! How on Earth did I get that impression?

If you are basing "loose" or "tight" simply on starting hand selection, then you are like one baby step beyond LEVEL 1.

So are low limit players loose or tight? Pick your definition, and then say whether they're loose or tight.

Explain why you said "weak-tight", I responded with "loose passive", and then YOU AGREED. Which is it? Tight or loose?

After you get 10 years under your belt, and you get in a typical weak-tight, calling station, no-fold 'em $4/$8 hold 'em game, let me know what your win rate is.

The hallmark of no-fold'em is LOOSE passive players, not tight passive: 5-7 to the flop and at least one caller all the way to the river.

I agree.

Let me guess - your finger slipped and you accidentally typed "tight" instead of "loose". The keys are right next to each other.

If knowing how much to bet on the turn is your idea of knowledge ...

I believe that there's really not much more for me to post in the thread, so I'll end with this (unless you post something worth responding to).

People reading this thread have two choices. They can listen to me, whose VERIFIABLE claims (how much a big bet is, whether players are tight or loose) have been accurate, but whose UNVERIFIABLE claims (how much one wins in the long run) might be low. Or they can listen to you, whose VERIFIABLE claims are totally false and explained as typos, but whose UNVERIFIABLE claims are insisted to be accurate.

They can listen to my advice, gathered from 100 hours of almost exclusively $3/$6 and $4/$8 limit at casinos (which, if you will note, is the exact point of this thread). Or they can listen to yours, which is based off of admittedly "very rare" low limit play and of which you've posted 4 hours at a charity game.

You may certainly be right - maybe I'm a piss poor player, squeaking my way with 1-2 BB's an hour when I could be crushing the game with 5-10 BB/hr.

But given your track record of punctuating verifiably false claims with insults, I'd bet against you. Either of us could pull a blackjack, but my true count is +1 and yours is -5.

:laugh:

 

[cardcounter0]

I will just post this for the others reading, since you seem to focus on tiny meaningless details, put all your emphisis on them, and don't listen to my answers anyways.

1. "RARE" low limit play. Yes, I play low limits rarely. As in I normally play much higher limits -- much higher. I play low limits rarely NOW, in learning the game I played low limits, oh, say, maybe, 20 TIMES more hours than you have. SO yes, I play low limit rarely. Yes, I do. And those rare times I do play low limits --- I have a win rate of about 5 to 8 BBs/hr.

2. Loose, tight? As I said -- who cares? It does not matter. Those are meaningless terms. The best hand is only a few % better than the worse hand before the flop. Again, you are focused on the tiny detail. It is much more important what you do AFTER the flop, and on the TURN and RIVER the bets DOUBLE -- Player's mistakes are twice as big there.

Playing too many hands preflop ie - Loose? Gosh, that means the player is giving up a few percent. Calling a turn check/raise with middle pair and a gut shot -- geee, it doesn't matter if the player is tight or loose preflop -- that is a much bigger and more expensive mistake.

Like I said, try to find players that are WEAK or PASSIVE. ie- check/call, only raise the river with absolute nuts, won't raise with a draw no matter how many outs they have, only bet with a made hand, never bet for value --- PASSIVE. If they play like that, I don't care how TIGHT or LOOSE they are.

So I guess people can listen to the 100 hour "expert", who knows how much to bet on the turn,

or they can listen to the guy who had other things going on that ruined his labor day weekend, and couldn't go to the casino and play his normal high limit poker, and instead had to be content with a few hours of CRUSHING low limit donkeys at $3/$6 -- and posting the wins as he did it -- win rates that the 100-hour "expert" claims are impossible.

Oh, and as for your "casino" experience -- don't knock these charity games -- these players are actually better than what is found in the normal casino -- for much the same reason better players are found online.

 

[callipygian]

they can listen to the guy who had other things going on that ruined his labor day weekend, and couldn't go to the casino and play his normal high limit poker, and instead had to be content with a few hours of CRUSHING low limit donkeys at $3/$6

Yes, yes, we all know how you won $240 in 3 hours, plus I'm assuming you got at least oral sex from the beautiful supermodel you took to the event, perhaps after you saved the old lady's life in the crosswalk. You can bench 300 lbs and have a 7th degree black belt in karate, and I'm sure that your good friend Sammy Farha can vouch for you when he's hanging out with you at the Playboy mansion this coming weekend.

Please don't hurt me, I promise I'll read Small Stakes Hold'Em so I can be an INTERNET SUPERSTAR like you.

 

[cardcounter0]

"Yes, yes, we all know how you won $240 in 3 hours, plus I'm assuming you got at least oral sex from the beautiful supermodel you took to the event, perhaps after you saved the old lady's life in the crosswalk. You can bench 300 lbs and have a 7th degree black belt in karate, and I'm sure that your good friend Sammy Farha can vouch for you when he's hanging out with you at the Playboy mansion this coming weekend."

Now who is lying? Yes, I won $240 in 3 hours of $3/$6. According to your vast experience there has never been variance that large, let alone a win rate. And according to your expert opinion, such a win rate is mathematically impossible, even with 6-7 limpers and 3 to the river.

The woman I took with me Sunday night is far from beautiful, although I would say she is a very good woman in many ways that have nothing to do with beauty. No oral sex this weekend, sorry.

I might have trouble benching 30 lbs, let alone 300 lbs, since the most exercise I get is carrying a couple racks of chips to the cashier cage.

I do have a black belt but it is a leather one I bought at the Men's Wearhouse. I don't know any karate, but I have been known to carry a Glock.

I don't know Sammy Farha personally, but I understand he is a "loose" player.
See how meaningless "loose" and "tight" is? Do you think you could win at a table full of "loose" Sammy Farha players? Sammy is aggressive and capable of pushing his small edges very hard, something a passive small stakes player will not do.

I do not know where the Playboy Mansion is located, I have no plans for this weekend, but I do not think going there is likely.

 

[callipygian]

After you get 10 years under your belt, and you get in a typical weak-tight, calling station, no-fold 'em $4/$8 hold 'em game, let me know what your win rate is.

The hallmark of no-fold'em is LOOSE passive players, not tight passive: 5-7 to the flop and at least one caller all the way to the river.

I agree.

:laugh: