The Art of Ratholing
- Thread starter vonQuux
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mparksmagic
New Member
I got caught ratholing once. I was dumb and didn't think about it, but was playing $25 hands on a $15 table. Pocketed about 250. Naturally I had the only greens and they kept disappearing. No heat or anything from it, just the PB came by to do a count, noticed missing greens, put in a camera request to track them down, dealer mentioned I had them, PB was real friendly after she knew I had them, she just asked that I have her count them when I leave. I just acted dumb and she was fine with it.
Wow, that must be a real sweatshop to actually call upstairs to find out who has a bunch of greens!mparksmagic said:
That's why you don't do things like rathole 2K in black. Especially if you're holecarding, you don't want any part of surveillance checking out your table. (Not to mention the fact that it's ineffective).
If I mess around with black, I'll rathole 1 or 2 of them MAX. If there's 1 or 2 missing most pits won't be too concerned, if there's a whole stack missing they have to credit it to someone.
tensplitter
Well-Known Member
Even ploppies rathole chips. A $10 better who gets a blackjack may get paid with 1 green chip (initial $10 bet + $15 win) if the table's running low on reds. Then they may rathole it away intending to not play that green chip. Or if they're winning big betting the minimum, they may ask to color up $100 of their stack, then put the black chip away.
The point of ratholing while playing rated is to show that you are a lifetime loser. You don't need to show that you lose every session. They will think something fishy is going on if they notice you playing 200 hours a year and you haven't had a net loss. Only a counter or a person using the martingale with a large bankroll and good luck would have that result. Guess which player will be banned and which player will be comped a luxury suite every visit. If you're not playing rated, who cares about your lifetime win? They can't track beyond your session.
The point of ratholing while playing rated is to show that you are a lifetime loser. You don't need to show that you lose every session. They will think something fishy is going on if they notice you playing 200 hours a year and you haven't had a net loss. Only a counter or a person using the martingale with a large bankroll and good luck would have that result. Guess which player will be banned and which player will be comped a luxury suite every visit. If you're not playing rated, who cares about your lifetime win? They can't track beyond your session.
if you're NOT playing rated, dont even take chips off the table, and definitely don't rathole.
It gives you zero benefit and it pisses off the pit, and they're much more likely to hassle a refusal then a rated player (especially if said player has a top tier player card).
It gives you zero benefit and it pisses off the pit, and they're much more likely to hassle a refusal then a rated player (especially if said player has a top tier player card).
StudiodeKadent
Well-Known Member
I believe I once ratholed "accidentally."
During my recent trip to Vegas, I never deliberately ratholed. I moved from casino to casino (Aria and Bellagio mostly), trading my chips over at the cage.
And yet, for some reason, at the end of my trip they had massively overestimated my actual loss. I actually made 1200 in winnings but they apparently believed I lost about 3000 or more.
This was probably due to a mistake made when I was being rated, because I kept all my chips in clear view.
And yes, Stupid Honest Me actually did inform the casino host of the mistake. I still am not sure if it was the right thing to do; it was clearly the mistake of the casino rather than anything that happened on my account. Especially since every time I exchanged my Bellagio chips for Aria chips and vice-versa, the casinos talked to each other on the phone to verify things. So the mistake was clearly not my fault.
On the other hand, I prefer conducting myself in an honest manner, especially since the comp system at the MGM properties is pretty generous. I get back 40% of actual or theoretical losses, whichever is greater. Additionally, the house assumes a theoretical loss at BJ of 0.7%, so I get back 40% of 0.7% of everything I bet in comps.
I ran some numbers based on my actual play stats from my trip to Vegas (4 hrs a day, 9 days, average bet $42, casino assumes 70 hands per hour) and I was comped $300. I crunched the numbers and got the assumed house edge of 0.7%.
Then I looked at the "effective house edge" on a bet of $100; casino assumes a loss of 70 cents per 100 dollars bet, and the player gets 40% of that back in comps. This means the player gets 28 cents back, so the casino assumes the player will lose (70-28) = 42 cents a hand.
However, a basic strategy BJ player, on a liberal Strip rules game (which was the game I played) will lose 28.5c (on average) on a single $100 bet on the blackjack tables.
In other words, on a flat $100 bet per hand, assuming a 40%-theoretical-loss-comp, a casino will make 0.5 cents per hand off a rated player that plays perfect basic strategy at a liberal vegas strip rules game.
Then factor in two considerations;
1) Free drinks at tables
2) I deliberately play slow, so there is no way in hell I was playing 70 hands per hour.
I don't even card count, and assuming my mathematics isn't completely wrong (I admit this is an extremely shaky assumption because I suck at math, so if anyone sees any errors please inform me), then the casino already makes basically nothing off of my play (and indeed, off any perfect basic strategy player).
So then I ask myself, do I even need to rathole?
(note: the above is based only on theoretical losses; the MGM players club comps you 40% of theoretical OR actual loss, whichever is larger. This only makes it more generous).
During my recent trip to Vegas, I never deliberately ratholed. I moved from casino to casino (Aria and Bellagio mostly), trading my chips over at the cage.
And yet, for some reason, at the end of my trip they had massively overestimated my actual loss. I actually made 1200 in winnings but they apparently believed I lost about 3000 or more.
This was probably due to a mistake made when I was being rated, because I kept all my chips in clear view.
And yes, Stupid Honest Me actually did inform the casino host of the mistake. I still am not sure if it was the right thing to do; it was clearly the mistake of the casino rather than anything that happened on my account. Especially since every time I exchanged my Bellagio chips for Aria chips and vice-versa, the casinos talked to each other on the phone to verify things. So the mistake was clearly not my fault.
On the other hand, I prefer conducting myself in an honest manner, especially since the comp system at the MGM properties is pretty generous. I get back 40% of actual or theoretical losses, whichever is greater. Additionally, the house assumes a theoretical loss at BJ of 0.7%, so I get back 40% of 0.7% of everything I bet in comps.
I ran some numbers based on my actual play stats from my trip to Vegas (4 hrs a day, 9 days, average bet $42, casino assumes 70 hands per hour) and I was comped $300. I crunched the numbers and got the assumed house edge of 0.7%.
Then I looked at the "effective house edge" on a bet of $100; casino assumes a loss of 70 cents per 100 dollars bet, and the player gets 40% of that back in comps. This means the player gets 28 cents back, so the casino assumes the player will lose (70-28) = 42 cents a hand.
However, a basic strategy BJ player, on a liberal Strip rules game (which was the game I played) will lose 28.5c (on average) on a single $100 bet on the blackjack tables.
In other words, on a flat $100 bet per hand, assuming a 40%-theoretical-loss-comp, a casino will make 0.5 cents per hand off a rated player that plays perfect basic strategy at a liberal vegas strip rules game.
Then factor in two considerations;
1) Free drinks at tables
2) I deliberately play slow, so there is no way in hell I was playing 70 hands per hour.
I don't even card count, and assuming my mathematics isn't completely wrong (I admit this is an extremely shaky assumption because I suck at math, so if anyone sees any errors please inform me), then the casino already makes basically nothing off of my play (and indeed, off any perfect basic strategy player).
So then I ask myself, do I even need to rathole?
(note: the above is based only on theoretical losses; the MGM players club comps you 40% of theoretical OR actual loss, whichever is larger. This only makes it more generous).
SleightOfHand
Well-Known Member
Ratholing...
As a magician, I have played around with a few techniques to hide away chips aside from the regular bathroom break techniques that involve more sleight of hand.
If playing with a player's card, I always leave the card on the table after the PC hands it back to me. As we are playing and I feel it is a good time to rathole, I discretely palm a chip or two and then "notice" to forget to put my card away, using my hand with the palmed chips to grab the card and put away a couple chips and my player's card.
If I am able to make a stack of 21-22 chips, I "count" them similarly to a dealer by putting my entire hand around the chips with my palm on top of the stack and quickly making stacks of 5 while simultaneously palming the top 1-2 chips. Then its a matter of getting your hand into your pocket. This can also be done when making bets with larger stacks on multiple spots or, if you are able to, chip shuffling; essentially any time you are handling a large stack of chips.
Remember that after palming chips, you dont have to directly put them in your pocket afterwards. I am sometimes holding onto a few chips a for a round or 2 of play before getting them into my pocket.
Palming chips isn't a very difficult move to learn and will be very helpful in your ratholing adventures.
PS: Here's something I just thought of after posting: If you are wearing a jacket, you can sleeve chips as well, not needing to get your hands off the table. Then during the right time, you can drop your hand, making a cup shape and catching the sleeved chips. Then just pop them into your pocket
As a magician, I have played around with a few techniques to hide away chips aside from the regular bathroom break techniques that involve more sleight of hand.
If playing with a player's card, I always leave the card on the table after the PC hands it back to me. As we are playing and I feel it is a good time to rathole, I discretely palm a chip or two and then "notice" to forget to put my card away, using my hand with the palmed chips to grab the card and put away a couple chips and my player's card.
If I am able to make a stack of 21-22 chips, I "count" them similarly to a dealer by putting my entire hand around the chips with my palm on top of the stack and quickly making stacks of 5 while simultaneously palming the top 1-2 chips. Then its a matter of getting your hand into your pocket. This can also be done when making bets with larger stacks on multiple spots or, if you are able to, chip shuffling; essentially any time you are handling a large stack of chips.
Remember that after palming chips, you dont have to directly put them in your pocket afterwards. I am sometimes holding onto a few chips a for a round or 2 of play before getting them into my pocket.
Palming chips isn't a very difficult move to learn and will be very helpful in your ratholing adventures.
PS: Here's something I just thought of after posting: If you are wearing a jacket, you can sleeve chips as well, not needing to get your hands off the table. Then during the right time, you can drop your hand, making a cup shape and catching the sleeved chips. Then just pop them into your pocket
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flyingwind
Well-Known Member
How do you do that trick where a girl lies down in a thin box with her head and feet showing and you saw her in half?SleightOfHand said:
SleightOfHand
Well-Known Member
There are 2 girls. You saw the first girl in half and then replace her with another girl. The hard part is replacing the original girl without the audience knowing and hiding the blood, but I won't reveal that part.flyingwind said: